kallend 2,150 #76 February 21, 2008 Quoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. Rather like Canada, Australia, and western Europe. Violent crime rates similar, maybe even worse (as John Rich often tells us) than the USA, but significantly better in homicide rates. Coincidence? I think not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #77 February 21, 2008 Good stuff. Keep it up.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clownburner 0 #78 February 21, 2008 QuoteNo, those factors may argue for a lower overall crime rate on campuses, but not the ratio of homicides to total violent crime. Actually, they do. I don't know where you're getting your figures, since you never cite sources, but all the data I have found pretty clearly indicates that on-campus violent crime rates per 10,000 population are all significantly lower than the violent crime averages for the US. The fact that fewer are homicides and more are forcible rape have nothing to do with guns and everything to do with cherry-picking your demographics. The number of homicides among CCW holders is a fraction of the on-campus homicide rate. Does that mean guns make people safer? See, I can pick my demographics too.7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #79 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteNo, those factors may argue for a lower overall crime rate on campuses, but not the ratio of homicides to total violent crime. Actually, they do. I don't know where you're getting your figures, since you never cite sources, . That is provably untue. See, for example, post #50 in this very thread. Casts serious doubt on your other claims.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clownburner 0 #80 February 21, 2008 QuoteCasts serious doubt on your other claims. Ha! When you can't cite facts, resort to attacking the claimant. You should be a plaintiff's lawyer.7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #81 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. and your theory is that this is because the students can't legally possess weapons on campus. Why not go with a perfectly valid counter theory - violent crime is still high because the muggers know their victims will be unarmed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #82 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteSo? Depends on the signage in a lot of places, from my understanding. Your instant defense leads me to believe you see verbiage like that as law abiding. I see it as representative of a "I don't givce a fuck about laws and do what I want" kind of attitude, so we may be mismatched as to what we see as law abiding. (and I still seriously wonder if CCW holders run less red lights and make less rolling stops at a stop sign) Nope - at least in Texas, if it doesn't meet the standard (certain size and specific text) then it can be ignored. I was not conversant with the post you mentioned, merely mentioning the possibility that the signage might not be a legal bar to carrying. And another mention of minor traffic violations to try and discredit the point of the 'more law abiding' fact.... those straws you're grasping at just get thinner and thinner, don't they?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #83 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. Rather like Canada, Australia, and western Europe. Violent crime rates similar, maybe even worse (as John Rich often tells us) than the USA, but significantly better in homicide rates. Coincidence? I think not. Columbia - 61.7 murders/100k S. Africa - 49.6 murders/100k Jamaica - 32.4 murders/100k Venezuala - 31.6 murders/100k Russia - 20.1 murders/100k You're *STILL* not proving that it's the guns, Professor.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #84 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. and your theory is that this is because the students can't legally possess weapons on campus. Why not go with a perfectly valid counter theory - violent crime is still high because the muggers know their victims will be unarmed? Because then he can't make his bogus claim that it's because of the guns...which, of course, explains all those massacres at gunshops, gun shows, police stations, etc...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #85 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. Rather like Canada, Australia, and western Europe. Violent crime rates similar, maybe even worse (as John Rich often tells us) than the USA, but significantly better in homicide rates. Coincidence? I think not. Columbia - 61.7 murders/100k S. Africa - 49.6 murders/100k Jamaica - 32.4 murders/100k Venezuala - 31.6 murders/100k Russia - 20.1 murders/100k You're *STILL* not proving that it's the guns, Professor. Having to compare the USA with Jamaica, ColOmbia, or Venezuela indicates that your case is very weak to the point of being pathetic. Try comparing the USA with similar industrialized nations, like Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #86 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. and your theory is that this is because the students can't legally possess weapons on campus. Why not go with a perfectly valid counter theory - violent crime is still high because the muggers know their victims will be unarmed? Because then he can't make his bogus claim that it's because of the guns...which, of course, explains all those massacres at gunshops, gun shows, police stations, etc... About 1 in 90 violent crimes in the USA is a homicide, the majority of them being shootings. About 1 in 400 violent crimes on a college campus is a homicide. None of your bluster can explain that difference.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #87 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteCasts serious doubt on your other claims. Ha! When you can't cite facts, resort to attacking the claimant. You should be a plaintiff's lawyer. The FACT is that I provide plenty of sources as a simple check of the archives will reveal. You just lost all credibility.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #88 February 21, 2008 Just some stuff about one of the often overlooked gun-control/gun-law environments: Kennesaw, GA http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n15_v46/ai_15729634 http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kennesaw&state=GA http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/crime_rate_plummets.htm http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/index.asp?NID=137 Now, what will the figures look like if I google-search for say, Washington, DC, where you cannot own a gun (for now we hope): http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Washington&state=DC How about a liberally run city like...Atlanta: http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Atlanta&state=GA By contrast, a large city like NYC seems to be "on par": http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=New+York&state=NY But the nation's second largest city, with equally repressive gun laws, Los Angeles: http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Los+Angeles&state=CA In fact, most cities do not outperform the average. Makes me wonder if a well-armed society is indeed, a polite society.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #89 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. and your theory is that this is because the students can't legally possess weapons on campus. Why not go with a perfectly valid counter theory - violent crime is still high because the muggers know their victims will be unarmed? Because then he can't make his bogus claim that it's because of the guns...which, of course, explains all those massacres at gunshops, gun shows, police stations, etc... About 1 in 90 violent crimes in the USA is a homicide, the majority of them being shootings. About 1 in 400 violent crimes on a college campus is a homicide. None of your bluster can explain that difference. Just as none of your innuendo and bogus arguments can prove it's due to the presence of firearms.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #90 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. Rather like Canada, Australia, and western Europe. Violent crime rates similar, maybe even worse (as John Rich often tells us) than the USA, but significantly better in homicide rates. Coincidence? I think not. Columbia - 61.7 murders/100k S. Africa - 49.6 murders/100k Jamaica - 32.4 murders/100k Venezuala - 31.6 murders/100k Russia - 20.1 murders/100k You're *STILL* not proving that it's the guns, Professor. Having to compare the USA with Jamaica, ColOmbia, or Venezuela indicates that your case is very weak to the point of being pathetic. Try comparing the USA with similar industrialized nations, like Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan. Too bad, Doc - just because you don't like the data doesn't make it invalid.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #91 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. Rather like Canada, Australia, and western Europe. Violent crime rates similar, maybe even worse (as John Rich often tells us) than the USA, but significantly better in homicide rates. Coincidence? I think not. Columbia - 61.7 murders/100k S. Africa - 49.6 murders/100k Jamaica - 32.4 murders/100k Venezuala - 31.6 murders/100k Russia - 20.1 murders/100k You're *STILL* not proving that it's the guns, Professor. Having to compare the USA with Jamaica, ColOmbia, or Venezuela indicates that your case is very weak to the point of being pathetic. Try comparing the USA with similar industrialized nations, like Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan. Too bad, Doc - just because you don't like the data doesn't make it invalid. Compare apples with apples, not bananas.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #92 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteso are you back to claiming colleges are full of drunken killers, or not? The number is 20 - is that a bad number or a good one? I'm claiming that the DATA on crime rates show that colleges are not significantly different than the rest of the nation in violent crime overall, but are significantly better in the number of gun homicides. Rather like Canada, Australia, and western Europe. Violent crime rates similar, maybe even worse (as John Rich often tells us) than the USA, but significantly better in homicide rates. Coincidence? I think not. Columbia - 61.7 murders/100k S. Africa - 49.6 murders/100k Jamaica - 32.4 murders/100k Venezuala - 31.6 murders/100k Russia - 20.1 murders/100k You're *STILL* not proving that it's the guns, Professor. Having to compare the USA with Jamaica, ColOmbia, or Venezuela indicates that your case is very weak to the point of being pathetic. Try comparing the USA with similar industrialized nations, like Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan. Too bad, Doc - just because you don't like the data doesn't make it invalid. Compare apples with apples, not bananas. Different cultures, as you like to point out - you just don't like the fact that I'm *not* letting you cherry pick *which* cultures are used.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #93 February 21, 2008 Quote Different cultures, as you like to point out - you just don't like the fact that I'm letting you cherry pick *which* cultures are used. Can you name any cultures more similar to the US than Canada, Australia and Western Europe? How about the G7 nations. Oh...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #94 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteYes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates? Deter? no. Stop them? It does have that potential would you not agree? As it equally has the potential to cause further shootings. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #95 February 21, 2008 QuoteAnd another mention of minor traffic violations to try and discredit the point of the 'more law abiding' fact.... those straws you're grasping at just get thinner and thinner, don't they? Not straws, just pointing out that you used a large sweeping statement while you really meant a much more defined statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #96 February 21, 2008 QuoteWhy not go with a perfectly valid counter theory - violent crime is still high because the muggers know their victims will be unarmed? Because most people would rather get mugged than killed. Now I know some people will say that they would rather have the option of stopping the mugger with a gun. Which is certainly a valid point. However, the data shows that option carries with it a higher risk of being killed. In the end I would rather have a slightly higher chance of getting mugges with a significatly lower chance of getting killed over the opposite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #97 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteWhy not go with a perfectly valid counter theory - violent crime is still high because the muggers know their victims will be unarmed? Because most people would rather get mugged than killed. Now I know some people will say that they would rather have the option of stopping the mugger with a gun. Which is certainly a valid point. However, the data shows that option carries with it a higher risk of being killed. In the end I would rather have a slightly higher chance of getting mugges with a significatly lower chance of getting killed over the opposite. Where are you getting your statistics? I got mine from the National Crime Victimization Survey. Your chances of being injured in a robbery or assault if you defend yourself with a gun, or if you do nothing: Any Self Protection with gun: Robbery: 7.7% Assault: 3.6% No Self Protection measures: Robbery: 23.6% Assault: 55.2% I'll take my chances with a gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #98 February 21, 2008 I'll take my chances without a gun. But why? Statistics say quite obviously that this isn't a smart option. So why? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #99 February 21, 2008 I was looking at things in a slightly grander scheme than if I had a gun in my hands at the time of mugging. Comparing violent crime rates and homicides in the US and other Western countries. As Kallend pointed out, comparing those same rates at student campuses. While the ready availability may or may not have downward pressure on violent crime rates, it does seem to increase homocide rates. Hence, my statement above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #100 February 21, 2008 There is a flaw in your reasoning. You are not accounting for the 300,000+ guns that careless "law abiding gun owners" funnel into the hands of muggers and other criminals each year in the USA, and the straw purchases and other illicit transactions due to the emasculated rules in the USA. Guns on campuses - do you REALLY think that none will be stolen, or "borrowed" by roomies?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
