Does this clip make you want to become a vegetarian?

[Lucky... 0]

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meat-heavy diets, perhaps. There's no reason to eat a 22 ounce steak (unless you really want to)

Meat has a lot of nutritional benefits, but as I've said, it is a concentrated food source. Therefore you only need to eat a relatively small amount to gain those particular benefits.


Interestingly, there are people who live in Siberia & similar places who subsist on mostly meat for a large portion of the year. A lot of it is freshly-killed game (and/or, soon frozen) which still contains many vitamins that you'd normally get from plants.

Beans are also a complete food source, w/o the "poisons" to boot. That is a horrible argument, meat is incredibly bad for humans.

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Nope, don't eat meat a lot but there are times when my body craves it. Avoid fast food as much as possible.

Read most of the thread and was surprised know one mentioned what happens when the fields are plowed for veggies. Hundreds of small animals meet their death and get mixed in with the dirt. Same happens when it's harvesting time. Unless your growing your own in pots inside your eating plenty of animals and their waste.

Ahhh, what took so long. As well, animals are hit by cars, so I guess animal lovers should not drive either. We are humans, we have a right to live and incidentally other humans and other species are going to die as an indirect act of daily living; these are a cost of living. To go the extra several miles and build farms, harvets millions of animals and have aushwitz type processing is pathetic.

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Never mind the small creatures killed and displaced, or the ground water sucked dry or contaminated by corporate farming, or overusage of pesticides and herbicides.

None of that makes a difference when someone is bashing eating meat or a non vegan lifestyle.

So you're gonna ride her coattail.....not surprised. Let me spin it on you. So, the truck that brings your clothes got in an auto accident and killed afamily of 4.....and you have the nerve to continue to wear clothes? To bring an argument to pathetic proportions reveals a true desperate measure. To watch people plannign vacations,spending 1000's of bucks to have the chance at driving a bullet thru the most defenseless creature doesn't take any abstract logic; it's prima facie planned and intentional cruelty.

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Or decide that a living creature's life is not worth a meal.

ah so we can assume you are a Fruitarian?

everything you eat (unless you are one of these fringe zealots) takes life in order to continue your own...


life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on.....

Spare me your abstract argument. So it is murder to pick a head of lettuce, same as shooting a deer, same as hanging a sheep by its foot for an hour so the blood drains out, then cutting its throat.

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There's lots of well thought-out stuff in this thread. But the "we're not designed to eat meat" argument just doesn't work. The very first thing that comes to my mind is Vitamin B-12. Can't live without it....or at least if you're gonna have blood and a brain. Can't get it from veggies. It's either meat, eggs, milk or a dietary supplement off the shelf.

Our digestive systems handle meat just fine....but they need a bit of fiber/roughage too. Somebody, at some point in history, said something about "balance in all things." I think that's probably true here too.

linz

Really, then how is it our ancestors didn't eat meat for 1000's of years?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Our digestive systems handle meat just fine....

And you're a doctor? Tell me about the colon and the impact red eat has on it.

It appears to me that Bill's post was FAR more scientific than is yours, why not counter it?

[Lindsey 0]

I think there's validity to the arguments against raising animals for food....especially on a larger scale. But to argue against people HUNTING for food, because it's mean to the animals is just laughable, imho. Talk about bringing an argument to pathetic proportions...."driving a bullet thru the most defenseless creature..." (lol) [shakes her head and walks away]

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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SAVE THE PLANTS



Except for CORN

I have determined that CORN while being a usefull food source.. and industrial resource...is completely and utterly evil... and hence deserves to be used as a food source and a raw product for making other food stuffs.. and for being used to create Ethanol

Wait, how bout we open a park, use the corn to feed little defenseless deer and charge an admission for nuts hell-bent on killing the most defenseless, harmless animals.

Corn-fed deer just aren't as tasty, imho.

linz

Well, it's all abiut taste and not humaity. Let's see, the good doctor doesn't want poor people to be provided healthcare and thinks it's cute to shoot Bambi.... HMO born-n-bred, huh?

[Lindsey 0]

I think Bill's post is fine. We handle meat fine....but we don't handle a diet of ONLY meat...or even PREDOMINATELY meat just fine. We DO have to have B-12. Have to have it or we'll die. Dead. But you can buy it off the shelf these days....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Lindsey 0]

and thinks it's cute to shoot Bambi....

Not necessarily "cute" and not Bambi. I like it when they bring home a good buck.

There is something to be said for men who are actually MEN. Don't whiney men kinda make you want to puke? Ummmm....forgot who I was talking to for a sec. Nevermind....

linz

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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I think there's validity to the arguments against raising animals for food....especially on a larger scale. But to argue against people HUNTING for food, because it's mean to the animals is just laughable, imho. Talk about bringing an argument to pathetic proportions...."driving a bullet thru the most defenseless creature..." (lol) [shakes her head and walks away]

linz

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think there's validity to the arguments against raising animals for food....especially on a larger scale. But to argue against people HUNTING for food, because it's mean to the animals is just laughable, imho.

Hey kids, if you're reading, not all doctors are this compassionate, don't be fooled by one doctor's rendering.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Talk about bringing an argument to pathetic proportions...."driving a bullet thru the most defenseless creature..." (lol) [shakes her head and walks away]

Subtracting your rhetoric, the points made were:

- defenseless creature
- driving a bullet thru

Since your post was rhetoric, which did you disagree with?

[Lindsey 0]

I disagree that there's a problem with putting a bullet through a defenseless creature for food....OR sport as long as you use the meat for food.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Lucky... 0]

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I think Bill's post is fine. We handle meat fine....but we don't handle a diet of ONLY meat...or even PREDOMINATELY meat just fine. We DO have to have B-12. Have to have it or we'll die. Dead. But you can buy it off the shelf these days....

linz

This is not an issue of fine or not fine, it's an issue of physiology.....perhaps missed that semester or 4? Address his points on human physiology. I'm older than many and realize that lawyers, doctors and others are people who test well and are really not that well versed on complex issues....IOW's, there are a lot of fakers at premier jobs - are you one?

His point was that we were not originally designed to eat meat based on our physiology, remember that thing about structure versus function? Let me read you pick that apart (if you can).

[Lindsey 0]

I think what he wrote is correct...but it doesn't argue against us being "designed" to eat meat. We're just not designed to eat ONLY meat or to tolerate a diet of predominately meat (I've said that three times now. Don't know how else to say it). Again....that little B-12 issue is enough right there to argue the point that we ARE designed to NEED animal products (meat, eggs, milk). Period. But obviously that's not one that you're interested in acknowledging Typical.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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and thinks it's cute to shoot Bambi....

Not necessarily "cute" and not Bambi. I like it when they bring home a good buck.

There is something to be said for men who are actually MEN. Don't whiney men kinda make you want to puke? Ummmm....forgot who I was talking to for a sec. Nevermind....

linz

And something said about women who are women, as with mothering/nurturing attributes, etc. But then there are always the Aileen Wuornos types.

So instead of actually addressing Bill's substantive assertions, you resort to your weak attempt at emasculation. Hmmm, what was that I said about fakers?

Yes, whiney men make me puke. My stature is probably greater than most, as well, you look at my hands and they are not well manicured and soft; but very calloused and scarred. I'm not the anemic type veg,not that I have a issue with that.

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I disagree that there's a problem with putting a bullet through a defenseless creature for food....OR sport as long as you use the meat for food.

And yet with that great explanation as to why......

[Lindsey 0]

because (again...for the 4th or 5th time) we HAVE to have meat or eggs or milk in order to live... Those who DO have a problem with killing an animal may buy dietary supplements, however, to provide vital nutrients that will necessarily be missing from their diets.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Lucky... 0]

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I think what he wrote is correct...but it doesn't argue against us being "designed" to eat meat. We're just not designed to eat ONLY meat or to tolerate a diet of predominately meat (I've said that three times now. Don't know how else to say it). Again....that little B-12 issue is enough right there to argue the point that we ARE designed to NEED animal products (meat, eggs, milk). Period. But obviously that's not one that you're interested in acknowledging Typical.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think what he wrote is correct...but it doesn't argue against us being "designed" to eat meat.

I mean this with no vex, but do you have a f'n clue as to what you're talking about? Design = function. Remember that day in A&P where you discussed structure and function? Should have been constantly discussd thru your entire education as a doctor, but perhaps Arkansas abbreviates that. The form is the design and it has to do with the function. If the jaw is compound, it is designed to chew, as opposed to a simple hinge. Can you refute that? Refute any/all points you can.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We're just not designed to eat ONLY meat or to tolerate a diet of predominately meat (I've said that three times now. Don't know how else to say it).

Just the contrary, we are designed to REQUIRE vegetation and can lve w/o meat. Explain how our predecessors lived w/o it for 1,000,000's of years. It's YOUR assertion that we need meat, you establish how we need it, not just assert it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that little B-12 issue is enough right there to argue the point that we ARE designed to NEED animal products

Animal products are not just meats. Furthermore, since I find your credibility as a doctor, suspect, I would like to read how we now need B-12, that it can't come from other sources and how our predecoessors lived w/o it.

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because (again...for the 4th or 5th time) we HAVE to have meat or eggs or milk in order to live... Those who DO have a problem with killing an animal may buy dietary supplements, however, to provide vital nutrients that will necessarily be missing from their diets.

Well fuck, I'll just believe you, as you are a doctor and all. Hey kid, I know the politics of academia and just because someone is a doctor, lawyer, etc doesn't mean we can just drop our arms and beleiev them, I want evidence of the former things I've written. It is your assertion, support it. Bill's elemental explanation is FAR the best I've read and way beyond your base knowledge level IMO, support your assertion.

[Lindsey 0]

Furthermore, since I find your credibility as a doctor, suspect, I would like to read how we now need B-12, that it can't come from other sources and how our predecoessors lived w/o it.

Educate yourself just a little bit and I think you'll understand more about vitamin B12. Meat, milk, eggs, supplements. You don't HAVE to eat the animal. You can raise chickens....or impregnate animals in order to get their milk. Or go to the drug store. Either way...you HAVE to have it. Period. You cannot live without it.

Design does equal function. I agree. We're not designed to eat ONLY meat or even PREDOMINATELY meat (for the kajillionth time). We are designed to eat some meat. We function with it. We don't function without it.

but do you have a f'n clue as to what you're talking about?

Yes.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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because (again...for the 4th or 5th time) we HAVE to have meat or eggs or milk in order to live... Those who DO have a problem with killing an animal may buy dietary supplements, however, to provide vital nutrients that will necessarily be missing from their diets.

Ummm, how do I say this, Linz..... oops up side ya head

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

1) B-12 is made by bacteria, not by animals.

2) Vitamin B-12 is naturally found in foods of animal origin including meat (especially liver and shellfish) and milk products. Animals, in turn, must obtain it directly or indirectly from bacteria, and these bacteria may inhabit a section of the gut which is posterior to the section where B-12 is absorbed. Thus, Herbivorous animals must either obtain B-12 from bacteria in their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by reingestion of cecotrope feces. Eggs are often mentioned as a good B-12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks absorption.[20] Certain insects such as termites contain B-12 produced by their gut bacteria, in a manner analogous to ruminant animals. [21] An NIH Fact Sheet lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B-12.

3) B-12 is found in inaimals, but not exclusively as you alluded

4) Plants only supply B-12 to humans when the soil containing B-12-producing microorganisms has not been washed from them.

[mnealtx 0]

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I want evidence of the former things I've written

How about some evidence of the

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Explain how our predecessors lived w/o it for 1,000,000's of years.

Why don't you just go ahead and prove that little thing.

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It's YOUR assertion that we need meat, you establish how we need it, not just assert it.

You mean, like you're asserting that we lived w/o meat for millions of years? Care to explain just HOW our ancestors lived w/out vitamin B12 for those millions of years, if they were only vegetarian?

Just as an FYI - Bill's post shows that we developed as OMNIVORES - able to eat meat and vegetation. If we had, as you assert, lived w/o meat for millions of years, our digestive systems would have evolved to be much closer to ruminants and much less close to carnivores than we are now.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Educate yourself just a little bit and I think you'll understand more about vitamin B12. Meat, milk, eggs, supplements. You don't HAVE to eat the animal.

Oh, I think I just did and I just educated you too. You claim we need to eat animals or animal products to get B-12, I just refuted that, we can get it w/o animals or their products. More importantly, we, as primal beings, could have gotten it from bacterias on plants.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Either way...you HAVE to have it. Period. You cannot live without it.

That we have never disagreed upon, but I have just established that it can easily and directly come from bacterias on plants.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Design does equal function. I agree. We're not designed to eat ONLY meat or even PREDOMINATELY meat (for the kajillionth time).

No, we are designed to eat exclusively vegetation. Show 1 attribute where we are designed to digest animal products.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We are designed to eat some meat. We function with it. We don't function without it.

Kid, I think you have structure = function and design a little convoluted. The structure or design of organs relates directly to it's function. As for function with it/without it, not the context of structure/design = function. We cannot live w/o B-12, but our structure/design to digest animals is not there, please illustrate 1 attribute that differs from that.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We are designed to eat some meat. We function with it. We don't function without it.

We don't function w/o meat? Hmmmm, I guess I haven't functioned for the last 20+ years. .... and you're a doctor

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Care to explain just HOW our ancestors lived w/out vitamin B12 for those millions of years, if they were only vegetarian?

I did,perhaps you posted this before I posted the Wilk article about the formation of B-12 on bacteria.

[mnealtx 0]

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Care to explain just HOW our ancestors lived w/out vitamin B12 for those millions of years, if they were only vegetarian?

I did,perhaps you posted this before I posted the Wilk article about the formation of B-12 on bacteria.

Yeah, I saw that.... why don't you stop taking your B12 supplements and eat a handful of dirt everyday and tell us how it goes.

Perhaps you can tell us why we still have eyeteeth if we evolved as vegetarians. You can do that AFTER you show the *proof* that our ancestors were vegetarians for "millions of years".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

No it doesn't make me want to be a veggie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CfbEhH8uyo&feature=related[url]

Thats terrible but it doesn't make me want to be a veggie either. I eat meat and love animals, I know Vets who do also. I don't think there is a conflict between the two.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca