In Depth Analysis of the Democratice Race

[kelpdiver 2]

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Also, I think that her and her husband have used the gov in more ways to silence detractors than any other pres in recent history. (including Bush)

How would you know? Guys have been held at Quantico for some time. Some just finally got charges made against them.

If Clinton wins, Monica better run her tax return by two or three different accountants.

[rushmc 23]

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Thanks for a decent response. I typically get responses like warpedskydiver's. With a couple of exceptions it appears that you think she manifests the sleazier side of politics more than some of the other options. I can certainly accept that. I equate her "experience" to mean "experiences with lobbyists" which is a big negative in my book. I can't put much weight on her Wiki score due to the fact that she was a recipient of the Clinton witch hunt that was the 90's. That White House responded to 1089 subpoenas and unlike the current WH, they didn't misuse executive privilege. A lot was thrown at them trying to get something to stick.
Personally I think that she's better qualified for the job than some candidates but I don't like her links to special interests, the fact that she'd be only marginally slower to go to war than McCain, the way she gave Obama shit for saying he'd pursue the terrorists where they actually are, and I thought her husband's middle east peace plan was crap. And I have a few other reasons but they're petty. The reason I'm most embarrassed to admit is that I don't want her as president because I don't want to have to deal with the constant din of the noise machine again, the one that drives the media to talking about her hair/clothes/laugh etc. They won in that regard I guess.
And yea, we could go on. I just wanted to say thanks for being one of the few who seems to have actually thought about why they dislike the candidate.

To me you asked a straight forward question. I respect that so, I (tried) gave a straight forward answer. Based on my perceptions and opinion. I wish we had more of that on this site.

thanks for the question

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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In November, McCain would make mincemeat of Hillary. But Obama can actually win this thing - and McCain knows it. McCain desperately wants to run against Hillary.

Hillary as a galvanizing force would be a great asset to the Republican nominee. Obama can get more first time voters, independents and cross over votes and I see that as the GOP's biggest threat.

I whole heartitly agree with your assesment here.

Query back to the community here.

What does Obama stand for? What are his acomplishments?

I know he says he is for change. Based on what he has said, what does this mean?

(idrankwhat, I hope you do not see this as a highjack but a continuation. If seen as a highjack, let me know, I will delet and start another thread)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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Also, I think that her and her husband have used the gov in more ways to silence detractors than any other pres in recent history. (including Bush)

How would you know? Guys have been held at Quantico for some time. Some just finally got charges made against them.

If Clinton wins, Monica better run her tax return by two or three different accountants.

I dont know for sure. only an opinion based on events and reported events

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

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…snip a bunch of unsubstantiated, biased rhetoric…

Even felons?…

Why shouldn't felons have a right to vote? They are subject to the laws passed and enforced by government servants. Do you approve of "taxation without representation?"

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[kelpdiver 2]

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Why shouldn't felons have a right to vote? They are subject to the laws passed and enforced by government servants. Do you approve of "taxation without representation?"

there are consequences to committing felonies.

[skydyvr 0]

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Why shouldn't felons have a right to vote?

Easy - they have proven themselves to be the wrong sort of people to help decide who represents the rest of us.

Felon = bad decision maker

. . =(_8^(1)

[lawrocket 3]

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…snip a bunch of unsubstantiated, biased rhetoric…

Even felons?…

Why shouldn't felons have a right to vote? They are subject to the laws passed and enforced by government servants. Do you approve of "taxation without representation?"

For the same reason that convicts and prisoners do not have freedom of speech. People can lose rights.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jcd11235 0]

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there are consequences to committing felonies.

Yes, there are. That doesn't mean the consequences are logical or just, just that they exist.

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[jcd11235 0]

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Easy - they have proven themselves to be the wrong sort of people to help decide who represents the rest of us.

Felon = bad decision maker

Those are pretty broad statements. Some of the most ethical people I know are convicted felons. Some of the most unethical people I know have squeaky clean records with the law. Being a felon does not imply being a bad decision maker any more than having a clean record implies one makes good decisions.

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[jcd11235 0]

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For the same reason that convicts and prisoners do not have freedom of speech. People can lose rights.

Rights are inalienable. Privileges can be revoked. Either way, I think disallowing voting privileges to convicted felons is incongruous with living in a democracy/representative republic.

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[skydyvr 0]

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Some of the most ethical people I know are convicted felons.

Examples? Unless you are talking about someone who's been falsely convicted (that's a whole new topic), I'm having a hard time imagining who you are talking about.

. . =(_8^(1)

[jcd11235 0]

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Examples? Unless you are talking about someone who's been falsely convicted (that's a whole new topic), I'm having a hard time imagining who you are talking about.

Sorry, I'm not naming names. Some are well respected in this sport (deservedly so), and it is not widely known that they spent quite a lot of time in prison. Others would be completely unknown to most everybody in the sport, so there would be no point.

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[lawrocket 3]

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Rights are inalienable.

No. Rights may be lost. It's why I find procedural due process so important. People's rights are at stake.

It's a nice thought - probably taken from the Declaration of Independence - "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

But, note, they do not appear in the Consitution. Nor do I belive in that same Creator - suggesting a thoecratic construct.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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Some of the most ethical people I know are convicted felons

Yes. Now. Obviously, there was a breach of ethics at some point.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skydyvr 0]

No, wasn't asking for names, just an idea of just how someone can be a properly convicted felon, yet not be considered a bad decision maker.

Now, if your argument is that people can reform thenselves to become good decision makers after a conviction, then I wouldn't disagree with that. But the "system" has no way to gauge it.

. . =(_8^(1)

[jcd11235 0]

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It's a nice thought - probably taken from the Declaration of Independence - "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

The Declaration of Independence was to declare the independence of a nation. The Constitution deals only with the government of that nation. The DOI is just as applicable under the Constitution as it was under the Articles of Confederation. When Lincoln delivered his Gettysburg Address, his count of "four score and seven years ago" went back not to just the ratification of the Constitution, but to the Declaration of Independence.

I seem to recall reading that the post Civil War SCOTUS used the concept that the nation of the United States transcended the nation-state of the United States to retroactively justify the use of force, etc. against the states that seceded.

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[jcd11235 0]

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Yes. Now. Obviously, there was a breach of ethics at some point.

Let's see. One of them had a gun pulled on him, and the next thing he remembered was standing over that person, who was dead at that point, with the gun now in his hands. Legally, it was no longer self-defense once he took the gun away. It was second degree murder, so he did time.

I don't see the breach of ethics there. Fight or flight mode kicked in, with fight being dominant. I take him at his word that he made no conscious decision to shoot anyone.

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[jcd11235 0]

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No, wasn't asking for names, just an idea of just how someone can be a properly convicted felon, yet not be considered a bad decision maker.

Now, if your argument is that people can reform thenselves to become good decision makers after a conviction, then I wouldn't disagree with that. But the "system" has no way to gauge it.

There are many, many bad decision makers that are allowed to vote in every election. In fact, very, very few people have never, at one time or another, been guilty of being a being a bad decision maker. We don't, nor should we, revoke their voting privileges. Nor should we revoke voting privileges of felons. We want released convicts to readjust to life outside of prison after their release, rather than commit more crimes, but for society's part, we take steps to further alienate them.

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[rushmc 23]

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No, wasn't asking for names, just an idea of just how someone can be a properly convicted felon, yet not be considered a bad decision maker.

Now, if your argument is that people can reform thenselves to become good decision makers after a conviction, then I wouldn't disagree with that. But the "system" has no way to gauge it.

There are many, many bad decision makers that are allowed to vote in every election. In fact, very, very few people have never, at one time or another, been guilty of being a being a bad decision maker. We don't, nor should we, revoke their voting privileges. Nor should we revoke voting privileges of felons. We want released convicts to readjust to life outside of prison after their release, rather than commit more crimes, but for society's part, we take steps to further alienate them.

You become a felon you loose your rights. There is a process to get those rights back. IMO they should have to go through that process

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

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Let's see. One of them had a gun pulled on him, and the next thing he remembered was standing over that person, who was dead at that point, with the gun now in his hands. Legally, it was no longer self-defense once he took the gun away. It was second degree murder, so he did time.

So your example really falls in the category of false/improper conviction. Most felons aren't innocent. Some find god or goodness afterwards (Michael Milkin after he got prostate cancer), but there's no doubt they did bad things, and part of the punishment is a loss of some rights, like gun ownership and voting, and often of privacy.

[kallend 2,184]

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She wants the US to becomes a socialist state.

Can you be any more specific than a sound bite?
.

Rushmc just hates those public roads, police departments, fire departments, airports, national parks, public health..., and he certainly doesn't want anyone from the EPA to notice the 32 million tons of pollution his company puts out every year.

Dam, stinky fish again

You my friend have taken my positions and twisted them into some kind of crazy wet dream

I don't need to twist anything, you have your looking glass and you use it very effectively.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

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So your example really falls in the category of false/improper conviction. Most felons aren't innocent. Some find god or goodness afterwards (Michael Milkin after he got prostate cancer), but there's no doubt they did bad things, and part of the punishment is a loss of some rights, like gun ownership and voting, and often of privacy.

I suppose it depends on how you define false/improper conviction. By the letter of the law, he did, in fact, commit second degree murder. Do I believe he acted out of self defense? Yes. Still, I also agree that generally, one the threat is neutralized via disarming, further aggression is not warranted.

Incidentally, there are a lot of people that have felony drug related convictions. Drug use is typically a victimless crime, yet it is one that produces *a lot* of convicted felons. Smoking a joint (or doing a line, popping a pill, etc.) is not unethical, and from a health standpoint, is often a better, safer choice than smoking a cigarette or drinking beer, despite its legal status.

I understand the reasoning behind disenfranchising felons. However, I consider it, like capital punishment, inconsistent with the values we claim to promote in the US.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 23]

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She wants the US to becomes a socialist state.

Can you be any more specific than a sound bite?
.

Rushmc just hates those public roads, police departments, fire departments, airports, national parks, public health..., and he certainly doesn't want anyone from the EPA to notice the 32 million tons of pollution his company puts out every year.

Dam, stinky fish again

You my friend have taken my positions and twisted them into some kind of crazy wet dream

I don't need to twist anything, you have your looking glass and you use it very effectively.

Oh, now to the insults.

Sorry you woke up

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SimonBones 1]

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For the same reason that convicts and prisoners do not have freedom of speech. People can lose rights.

Rights are inalienable. Privileges can be revoked. Either way, I think disallowing voting privileges to convicted felons is incongruous with living in a democracy/representative republic.

Good call on inalienable rights! The second amendment of the bill of rights CLEARLY states:

"the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

And I tell you this, If I ever go to prison, I want a gun. How dare they violate a prisoners RIGHT to have a gun? What if they needed to start a militia or shoot somebody? Rights are inalienable.

108 way head down world record!!!
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