3rd Grade Transgendered Student?

[Para_Frog 1]

I'm all for tolerance and diversity, but WTF. Parents should be skinned.

Kid may very well be trasgendered, but since his friggin stones haven't descended - how the hell would he know yet without help?

Story

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[CanuckInUSA 0]

If you were tolerant the way you say you are, then you would let the child, parents and the people counselling them worry about this problem instead of telling people on the internet that you think the parents need to be skinned alive. If this child is (after counselling) deemed to be transgendered isn't it best to deal with the issue before puberty sets in. Or should the flying spaghetti monster and his disciple "Hey-Zues" be called in to fix things? Because after all, we all know that a plagiarised man made religion can solve all the worlds problems.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,132]

>Kid may very well be trasgendered, but since his friggin stones haven't
>descended - how the hell would he know yet without help?

Sometimes it happens earlier than that. Babies with ambiguous genitalia are often surgically 'assigned' to one sex or the other (usually female; that's easier and is generally the biological default) quite early in life.

In the case of this kid, he may well be genetically male but more phenotypically female (or vice versa, although that's rarer.) It's not going to be easy for him, that's for sure.

[Para_Frog 1]

I just said skinned...quit misquoting me.

Edit to add: Don't make me tell everyone you're actually cool in person.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[CanuckInUSA 0]

This is obviously a difficult situation for everyone involved. Difficult for the other children to understand why this young child feels the way they do, difficult for the school to try and accomodate everyone in a fair and safe way, difficult for the parents. But most of all this is difficult for a child who feels they are not what the rest of the world thinks they are. We can only hope that the child and parents get good (non-religious) counselling. But if this child is indeed transgendered, then it is best to deal with it before the child hits puberty. It will only get worse for him once puberty sets in.

Too bad the world loves to judge people who are different from themselves.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Para_Frog 1]

I never once brought up religion - and have no idea why you did. My personal belief is that there is little evolutionary precedent for transgenderism.

I've yet to see a gender-confused simian. There may very well be an example somewhere - please enlighten me.

What the hell does that have to do with your anti-religious rant? Little out of left field there dude. Take a deep breath and refocus the discussion. I seriously doubt you could even determine whether or not I'm atheist from the OP.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Sorry my anti-religious comments on dealing with this issue are more generic and not directed at any specific person. I could have done a better job making that clearer from the earlier posts.

PS: I am not an athiest. I'm agnostic. There is a difference.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,132]

>I've yet to see a gender-confused simian.

Apes exhibit polygamy, homosexuality and gender reversal (i.e. males caring for infants and taking the place of a female in the hierarchy.) Since they tend not to wear dresses, though, it's not as obvious.

References:

Homosexuality in monkeys: Edwards & Todd, 1991)
Homosexuality in rhesus monkeys: Mitchell, 1979, pp. 134 &142
in macaques: Mehlman & Chapais, 1988; Mitchell, 1979, p. 416
in stumptail macaques in captivity: Small, 1993, p. 141

Homosexuality in chimpanzees, bonobos, mountain gorillas: Wrangham, 1986, p. 367; Yamagiwa, 1987; Yamagiwa, 1992; Edwards & Todd, 1991

Gender reversal in white-handed gibbons: Edwards & Todd, 1991
in bonobos: Small, 1993, p. 143
in mountain gorillas: Yamagiwa, 1987

[Para_Frog 1]

Quote

PS: I am not an athiest. I'm agnostic. There is a difference.

I realize the difference - I'm surrounded by them. Read s-l-o-w-e-r. How much coffee did you have today dude?

Quote

I seriously doubt you could even determine whether or not I'm atheist from the OP.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[Para_Frog 1]

Yeah, I've seen that...I think that's a bit of a stretch in this context.

I mean more on the side of the physical manifestations that are associated with the obvious cases of gender re-assignment, for example. Those I have not seen in primates.

Humans take over different roles in the hierarchy as well, but it doesn't necessarily equate to transgenderism.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[billvon 3,132]

>I mean more on the side of the physical manifestations that
>are associated with the obvious cases of gender re-assignment,
>for example. Those I have not seen in primates.

What is a "physical manifestation?"

Do you mean role reversal, where a female monkey takes on the 'role' of a male (as in attempted mounting of another female, or attempted dominance in a group?) That happens.

Do you mean actual expression of secondary sexual characteristics, like breasts in males? Generally that doesn't happen in any primates (including man) without medical intervention.

Do you mean wearing of dresses and whatnot? That's a purely human thing because other primates don't wear dresses.

[Para_Frog 1]

I don't think that the role-reversal of a female primate can be called postgenderistic behavior. That's more a function of environment within the society of that animal.

Your other examples are all related to our species and require intervention to empower. Hence - the parents from the OP.

The DSM IV still calls it a disorder. gender identity disorder (302.85). A psychological condition.

The DSM IV was not written by priests (sorry Canuck). Someone lend a solid case to the argument that a 3rd grader has any idea what the hell is going on without being influenced. Good luck.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

That's a purely human thing because other primates don't wear dresses.

Definitely not arguing here.

Just posting to say I think it is silly to compare humans to other primates just as it is silly to compare people who are transgendered (people who identify themselves as a member of the opposite gender they were born into) versus people who are transvestites (people who take pleasure from wearing clothing of the opposite sex), just as it silly to assume that people who are transgendered or who are transvestites are automatically homosexual. These are four completely different and unrelated topics.

Once again not arguing, just trying to make sure everyone who reads this and feels compelled to post to remember not to compare apples to oranges.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

I'm all for tolerance and diversity, but WTF. Parents should be skinned.

Kid may very well be trasgendered, but since his friggin stones haven't descended - how the hell would he know yet without help?

Story

I did a huge report on this topic in law school.

I think you're confusing transgender with homosexuality. Gender identity is formed long before puberty, and transgendered children are a fairly well documented phenomena and transgenderism may or may not occur simultaneously with intersexuality (ambiguous genitalia/hermaphrodism). There are documented biological differences between transgender males and non-transgender males, and the brain structure of transgender males resembles female brains more than standard male brains.

[Para_Frog 1]

See? THAT's all I'm lookin for people. Ya got refs?

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[Para_Frog 1]

Quote

I think you're confusing transgender with homosexuality.

...and you would be wrong. Postgenderism often has an associated asexuality. I know this.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Also people automatically assume that transgendered people are all MTF when in reality there is an equal number of FTM transgendered people out there (does anyone remember Teana Brandon or was that Brandon Teana). I used to work with a FTM and it was not easy to tell that they were actually born female. The surgery for FTM is more drastic than MTF (both are irreversible), but it is easier to conceal FTM than MTF (especially when the transition occurs after puberty).

In summary, if this grade 3 person is indeed transgendered and everyone involved believes this persons life would be better with the transition, it is better to deal with it before puberty. Finally (not directed at anyone specific here) do not judge this family and this young individual unless you've walked a mile in their shoes. The clock is ticking.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,132]

> I don't think that the role-reversal of a female primate can be
>called postgenderistic behavior. That's more a function of environment
>within the society of that animal.

?? As we are all products of our environments and genetic inheritance.

The purpose of listing the above cases was to demonstrate that homosexuality and paradoxical gender identification are not unique to humanity. They are not "things that people decide to do because they XXXX."

>Someone lend a solid case to the argument that a 3rd grader has
>any idea what the hell is going on without being influenced.

Kids that age have a pretty good idea of "what's going on" in my experience, even if they can't put it into words or cite any case studies.

[nerdgirl 0]

From the linked news story, it isn’t clear to me what exactly “transgender” means in this case, e.g., sex chromosome abnormality or something else.

W/r/t abnormalities to the observed normal genetic sexual dimorphorism, ... yes, primates have similar sex chromosomes, and yes, I am aware of cases in which occasional XO or XXX variants have been observed in primates (e.g., chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas) …. & other mammals too (e.g. horses). See “Evolution of primate chromosomes” Science, 1997 & “Evolution of Sex Chromosomes in Mammals,” Annual Review of Genetics, 1969.

Now that’s genetic/chromosomal sex differences … I’m not aware of any correlation w/observed phenotype differences (physical appearance) in non-human primates … which is sometimes applied the short-hand of “transgenderism.” There may be … I’m just not aware of them.

While not primates, a few years ago (2000) there was a study published in Science on "evidence for ecological causation of sexual dimorphism in hummingbird” (Temeles, Ethan J; Pan, Irvin L.; Brennan, Jillian L.; Horwitt, Jedediah N. Science, Volume 289(5478) 21, July 2000, pp 441-443) Obviously humans aren't hummingbirds, can one make an analogy between ecologically-driven phenotypic sexual dimorphism (& they're used the term as far as average masses and average sizes of beaks) in one species to another? I don’t know.

W/r/t the original case … more questions than answers … regardlees, a lot of sympathy and compassion for the kid. Being a kid today seems hard enough – I hope the kid has a solid supportive family.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Para_Frog 1]

You must have been busy today Dr. That took longer than 3 minutes. Good work. Thanks.

- C.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

See? THAT's all I'm lookin for people. Ya got refs?

I can send you my research paper if you want. All the citations are in there.

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

From the linked news story, it isn’t clear to me what exactly “transgender” means in this case, e.g., sex chromosome abnormality or something else.

Transgender means that the person is biologically (phenotypically) one gender, and mentally another gender.

What you're describing with sex chromosomes is a form of intersexuality, where a person has characteristics of both sexes, or some kind of ambiguity about their physical sexuality (chromosomal differences, androgen insensitivity syndrome, etc).

[jakee 1,611]

Quote

See? THAT's all I'm lookin for people. Ya got refs?

So maybe the parents shouldn't be skinned?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,132]

>So maybe the parents shouldn't be skinned?

No need to get all crazy on us with the extremist suggestions, Jakee.

[kschilk 0]

Quote

Sorry my anti-religious comments on dealing with this issue are more generic and not directed at any specific person. I could have done a better job making that clearer from the earlier posts.

PS: I am not an athiest. I'm agnostic. There is a difference.

People (loosely used) like this, make the Taliban look righteous.

"T'was ever thus."