kbordson 8 #451 February 12, 2008 QuoteYou argue for privatisation because it is good for you (you own a medical clinic or have implied that you do), you say "why should I share 'my' wealth that 'I' have created for myself. Yet again you are INCORRECT. I do not own the clinic. (Nor do I own the nurses, the receptionist or the other workers.... ) If you had bothered to ask, you would have more information to make statements. But instead, you just make your own opinions on assumptions based on lack of knowledge of reality. Here is a listing of average salaries of OB/Gyn in America. I make less than ALL of the listings (and half of some.... because I am "selfish"?) If you had read my pm's or my posts in this thread, my whole opinion is based on PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and FREEDOM OF CHOICE. You have the choice to come over here, you have the choice to skydive. . . If I'm paying for your healthcare (via taxes and the government), should we the people then have the right to decide what you can/can't do. I should be able to regulate your wingloading. I should be allowed to fine you heavily for down wind landings. And the penalty for not flaring would be?? Consider a parallel with roads - We have public roads under certain restrictions. The government pays for the roads, in return, you have to follow speed limits, have a license, have government sponsored enforcers.... is that truly what you want with healthcare and it's limits. ("You get healthcare under our restrictions.") Personally I would rather evaluate the risks in my life and make MY decisions accordingly. I DO NOT WANT the government to control my actions. Not based on GREED. Rather INDEPENDENCE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #452 February 12, 2008 QuoteI DO NOT WANT the government to control my actions. Not based on GREED. Rather INDEPENDENCE. I find explaining this concept to many foreigners to be very difficult. Maybe it's because they've not experienced "freedom"---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #453 February 12, 2008 QuoteI find explaining this concept to many foreigners to be very difficult. Maybe it's because they've not experienced "freedom" Psst dont you know.. its because they HATE freedom... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #454 February 13, 2008 Fourhundred+ posts after your initial contribution, the take-away lesson is that PIGS WILL LEARN TO SING before any of the hardcore Americans will ever admit to anything being remotedly wrong in this glorious country of theirs. Remember the Titanic? P.S.: Good news is that according to a recent study, by 2020 fifteen % of the American population will be foreign-born. So there is some hope for reason and rationale. QuoteI live in a predominantly white suburban area about 10 minutes from NASA. I also have full medical coverage. Last night I drove down the street to get some food, and while in the parking lot, I suddenly felt really dizzy, the ground gave way, and I found myself collapsing unto the ground. I stumbled back to the car, waited a bit, and drove home. I then had my roommate take me to the emergency room to see what’s problem. There I was told it will take 6-8 hours to see a doctor. I waited for 4 hours, but couldn’t handle sitting up any more, so I ended up just leaving, so I can go lie down in a bed. Needless to say I never got to see the doctor. So here is a big fuck you, privatized American healthcare system. Next time I have an emergency I am going back to Canada, where I never had to wait more than 2 hours to get FREE help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #455 February 13, 2008 Just to clear up some misrepresented non facts: Healthcare in NZ is NOT free to all: QuoteWomen who are not eligible for publicly funded health services may be charged for antenatal, labour, birth and postnatal services provided to them. Also, babies born from 1 January 2006 will only be eligible for New Zealand citizenship if at least one of their parents is a New Zealand citizen or permanent resident. If you are not eligible for publicly funded maternity services and your baby is not eligible to be a New Zealand citizen, you will also pay any costs for your baby. For more information on eligibility see the Ministry of Health's website or the Department of Internal Affairs' website. QuoteAccident treatment Treatment for accident-related injuries is subsidised by the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC), as long as this care is provided by a registered health professional. There may be a user part-charge for visits to GPs, or for physiotherapy, chiropractic and other recommended treatments. QuoteDrugs or medications Some medicines are subsidised for patients in New Zealand. Pharmac, a government organisation, specifies which medicines will be subsidised (ie, these are the medicines on the Pharmaceutical Schedule). Adult New Zealanders will usually pay $3 per item for subsidised medicines from a community pharmacy, though this may cost up to $15 if the prescription is from a specialist. Prescription medicine for children under six years is often free. For some medicines you also pay an extra part-charge. Some drugs are not subsidised at all, and must be fully paid for. Your doctor can tell you if a drug has an extra charge or is not subsidised. Non-prescription (over-the-counter) medicines must be paid for in full. QuoteNon-New Zealand residents Health services are funded for New Zealand residents. People who are not permanent residents can be charged for their healthcare. Nobody can be refused emergency care because they cannot pay, although they may be sent a bill later. Source Hmmmm.... not quite what we are led to believe when facts are checked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #456 February 13, 2008 Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I find explaining this concept to many foreigners to be very difficult. Maybe it's because they've not experienced "freedom" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Psst dont you know.. its because they HATE freedom... It seems that many Americans are finding that path rather attractive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #457 February 13, 2008 Also.... Rationing of Health Care Experience with rationing health care in New Zealand So over here, the rationing is by finances (unless you go to the ER where you have to be seen and treated) but subsidized by the government if you're poor and then on Medicaid. Over there it's rationing by "projected" survival. "I don't think you'll benefit 'enough' from this. So, you'll just die" I would rather go on Medicaid and get treatment as opposed to having someone tell me "you only have 6mos to live, so no treatment." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #458 February 13, 2008 QuoteFourhundred+ posts after your initial contribution, the take-away lesson is that PIGS WILL LEARN TO SING before any of the hardcore Americans will ever admit to anything being remotedly wrong in this glorious country of theirs. Remember the Titanic? P.S.: Good news is that according to a recent study, by 2020 fifteen % of the American population will be foreign-born. So there is some hope for reason and rationale. Touche. You seem awfully brave insulting us while hiding behind the anonymity of no profile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #459 February 13, 2008 QuotePIGS WILL LEARN TO SING before any of the hardcore Americans will ever admit to anything being remotedly wrong in this glorious country of theirs. Um, that's a position unsupported by this thread. Is "hardcore American" the new derogatory term? As opposed to "soft-core European?" Though I understand "soft-core" - no Europeans would fuck with Americans. QuoteRemember the Titanic? Yes. That was British arrogance. All of those dead - but Ismay made it. Hmmm... Quote 2020 fifteen % of the American population will be foreign-born. We welcome foreigners who can help us make a buck. Quote So there is some hope for reason and rationale. Yes, there is. This is shown by your remarkably well-reasoned, rational, and non-conclusory post! Maybe by then I will also be less sarcastic. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #460 February 13, 2008 Give up will you? Close mindedness has rooted itself deeply in european culture. They refer to it as open minded, but only so that they can make disparaging remarks about those who are not like minded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #461 February 13, 2008 Quote Give up will you? Close mindedness has rooted itself deeply in european culture. They refer to it as open minded, but only so that they can make disparaging remarks about those who are not like minded. And to think, many on this site would have us be more like them"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #462 February 13, 2008 Our forefathers and mothers fought likee hell to get out of Europe. We were regarded as the refuse - the heretics and crazies who didn't like the way they did things in Europe. Think about the Colonialistic history of Europe. They're better than everyone, so what if the Indians as indentured servants tending tea leafs? See, America had its problems, too. We couldn't erase that sense of superiority. WE had slaves, killed indians, etc. But for the most part, we just wanted to be left alone and went west to be left alone. Europeans didn't want to be left alone, and had two great wars because they couldn't mind their own business. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #463 February 13, 2008 You are all up in arms arent you, I have never said health care is free, I have said if you have a serious accident you will be fixed and you will not be charged. If you have lung cancer... you pay if you puncture a lung... you do not pay if your teeth are smashed out... you do not pay If you teeth are rotten with decay... you pay You seem to assume that every person is blesses with the exact same opportunities to earn a living and look after themselves. What about an orphan with down syndrome? what if your insurance company goes into liquidation (this is what happened to my freind with the broken arm that wasn't fixed for 5 days until his parents forked out the money) Not everyone is in the same shoes and not everyone has an equal advantage to make informed and intellegent decisions for themselves."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misaltas 0 #464 February 13, 2008 >Want to argue against providing a basic education to all Americans? I'd rather not. I believe in current US constitutional interpretation. Educating kids 6-16 benefits each of them as much as it benefits society. I equate that with public works & safety, defense, law & courts, environmental protection. >Did YOU attend a public school or college? Through HS for free, yes. For why see above. And college isn't free. >1. Take a walk to your local hospital (good for the heart) and count for yourself the number of "workers" that are extraneous to providing healthcare. If decreasing waste is what you're after, strange you're looking to gov't socialization as the ticket. >Very few people are bankrupted by the cost of food and clothing You surprised me there. Seems you opted for 'it's expensive' rather than 'it's good for society' as a reason we should socialize healthcare. Hey, lots of things in life fair and unfair can bankrupt us. Why stop there? >2. Because prevention is cheaper than cure If people with basic means are financially prudent and care about the quality of their own personal health, they can provide for their own preventative medicine. As you said, it's cheaper than the alternative. After that if they want, pay an insurance carrier to share the risk of curing whatever disease or injury may hit them. But of course a compassionate civilized society should always provide healthcare and other basics to the truly needy. And we do. >our existing system discourages preventative medicine. Hmm. I don't have much to say about someone who would allow their government to "discourage" them from taking care of their own personal preventative health. Sounds like "nanny state"-speak to me.Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #465 February 13, 2008 QuoteBreak your arm in my country and it will cost you absolutely nothing for the treatment, even if you are a tourist! no insrance nessescaryYour quote from post #279QuoteI have never said health care is free, I have said if you have a serious accident you will be fixed and you will not be charged. Both of these statements by you are false. Read the link in the prior post from your Ministry of Health, it is not free! Or are they wrong too?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #466 February 13, 2008 QuoteYou are all up in arms arent you, I don't like having my Country misrepresented.... and obviously you think it tastes a bit sour too. (good) QuoteI have never said health care is free, I have said if you have a serious accident you will be fixed and you will not be charged. YES I WILL. Look at the website from YOUR country. QuoteIf you have lung cancer... you pay My Dad had Lung Cancer. Why doesn't he deserve health care coverage? Why should he die? If it was your father, would you allow him to die? Quoteif you puncture a lung... you do not pay That might depend on if it's a spontaneous pneumothorax or if there was some medical reason for it. Or are you just talking that if some one STABS ME?! It's so peace loving and perfect? Why would there ever be any violnece? Quoteif your teeth are smashed out... you do not pay I will avoid the obvious replies. QuoteIf you teeth are rotten with decay... you pay What about children whose mother took tetracycline during the pregnancy? And dental health is actually a risk factor for preterm labor and complications... so ..... QuoteYou seem to assume that every person is blesses with the exact same opportunities to earn a living and look after themselves. What about an orphan with down syndrome? We have a foster-care system, which is government funded and state run. It's not the best program, but it does provide for those children.... even those with development disabilities. Quotewhat if your insurance company goes into liquidation (this is what happened to my freind with the broken arm that wasn't fixed for 5 days until his parents forked out the money) Firstly - I still argue that if he had a broken arm that he was refused care at an ER. AGAIN.... IT IS AN EMTALA VIOLATION. I do not believe you. If he was told he had to wait. . . .SUCK IT UP CUPCAKE. I waited 6hrs for care for my broken ankle. Some people just have an entitled attitude that demands IMMEDIATE care. But, back to your question, if my insurance collapsed, I would still get it fixed and then look into COBRA. But... I would not delay MY HEALTH (which is MY RESPONSIBILITY) for the sake of money. AND, If I couldn't COBRA then accept the debt and if necessary (ie the debt is too significant that I will never be able to get out from under) bankruptcy is an option. QuoteNot everyone is in the same shoes and not everyone has an equal advantage to make informed and intellegent decisions for themselves. Dude... again with the assumptions. I went to college on scholarship from the military (part of the EVIL DEFENSE BUDGET), paid my time back. Not only did I not receive a penny from my family, but IN FACT, I had to get a job to help my mom pay the house payments when my dad got lung cancer and then had a stroke and was in the nursing home for 11months before he died. I have NEVER had a silver spoon. Nor do I have much respect for those that think they can get one from me (however it's stolen). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #467 February 13, 2008 >And to think, many on this site would have us be more like them. Yep. Next thing you know, we'll be listening to people like Thomas Paine. Good to hear you don't cotton to any of that "freedom" stuff he was preaching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #468 February 13, 2008 Quote Not everyone is in the same shoes and not everyone has an equal advantage to make informed and intellegent decisions for themselves. The truth rears its ugly head... Dr. Bordson does not believe she is better than anyone else. Dr. Bordson, by virtue of her career, understands that what is good for one person may be disastrous to another. Dr. Bordson, by virtue of her career, understands that the people should decide what is best for themselves individually - and not some Doctor, bureaucrat, or other person who may believe that he is more advantaged, informed and intelligent than the individual, thus anointing themselves to make that decision for the idiot peasants. Tell me, rhys, who makes decisions about your future. Because I can tell who makes decisions about Dr. Bordson's patients - and the answer (her patients) likely will surprise you. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #469 February 13, 2008 QuoteI find explaining this concept to many foreigners to be very difficult. Maybe it's because they've not experienced "freedom" Or perhaps because they have.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #470 February 13, 2008 Quote I don't like having my Country misrepresented.... and obviously you think it tastes a bit sour too. (good) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have never said health care is free, I have said if you have a serious accident you will be fixed and you will not be charged. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YES I WILL. Look at the website from YOUR country. Maybe I should let the right people explain what I mean! http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/WCM001278?ssSourceNodeId=3860&ssSourceSiteId=1494 Click the link on the pages about the About the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 2001. http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/WCM000139?ssSourceNodeId=3860&ssSourceSiteId=1494#info If you get sick you 'are' covered for free, but there are waiting lists, obviously as it s not a perfect world. We do have private hospitals also if anyone would rather. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #471 February 13, 2008 Quote>And to think, many on this site would have us be more like them. Yep. Next thing you know, we'll be listening to people like Thomas Paine. Good to hear you don't cotton to any of that "freedom" stuff he was preaching. Nice twist billvon. got nothin better to do than to distort my meaning?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #472 February 13, 2008 Quote http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/WCM001278?ssSourceNodeId=3860&ssSourceSiteId=1494 Click the link on the pages about the About the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 2001. http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/WCM000139?ssSourceNodeId=3860&ssSourceSiteId=1494#info If you get sick you 'are' covered for free, but there are waiting lists, obviously as it s not a perfect world. Again, you didn't have the "right" people explaining. Those pages look more like explaining LIMITS of your rights and described LEGAL limitations. It did cover some medical (including medical misadventures), but doesn't discuss foreign or the exemptions that I noted above. Additionally the link that I provided was last updated "Information current as of December 2007." I still argue your points. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #473 February 13, 2008 I have more skydives than you! I have instructed more students than you! I have packed more reserve-saves than you! Does that help? What difference does it make to the argument at hand as to whether I have 10 or 10,000 skydives? QuoteQuoteFourhundred+ posts after your initial contribution, the take-away lesson is that PIGS WILL LEARN TO SING before any of the hardcore Americans will ever admit to anything being remotedly wrong in this glorious country of theirs. Remember the Titanic? P.S.: Good news is that according to a recent study, by 2020 fifteen % of the American population will be foreign-born. So there is some hope for reason and rationale. Touche. You seem awfully brave insulting us while hiding behind the anonymity of no profile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #474 February 13, 2008 >got nothin better to do than to distort my meaning? You don't need me for that! You are doing an excellent job on your own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #475 February 13, 2008 Quote>got nothin better to do than to distort my meaning? You don't need me for that! You are doing an excellent job on your own. Tell me Bill, what did you just acomplish by this post? and the one prior? I think you know what I meant. What is the point?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
