Four U.S. Soldiers Rape and Kill a 14 Years Old Girl

[warpedskydiver 0]

Well, the Garden of Eden was actually located there, before Saddam drained it and killed the inhabitants.

[billvon 3,113]

> I could have sworn I've seen reports of a bunch of mass graves
>being uncovered, the results of Hussein's henchmen.

Yep, the older ones. The more recent ones are the results of the violence in Iraq today.

>So Iraq was the garden of Eden before America arrived.

Quite literally, yes. Many literal christians believe that the Garden of Eden was located near the Tigris and Euphrates, in what is now Iraq.

More figuratively, also yes. Iraq was relatively peaceful before we invaded. That peace was achieved by using an iron fist, but it was peaceful nonetheless.

[kelpdiver 2]

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More figuratively, also yes. Iraq was relatively peaceful before we invaded. That peace was achieved by using an iron fist, but it was peaceful nonetheless.

That probably varies greatly on the individual's point of view. I doubt the Kurds would consider it true.

[billvon 3,113]

>That probably varies greatly on the individual's point of view.

Agreed. The people in Kurdistan and Baghdad are going to have radically different views of the issue.

[juanesky 0]

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Do you have any clue on what life was like in Iraq before we invaded? The Iraqis didn’t have (choose whatever number you want in the tens of thousands) of inocent people killed...

Oh, pardon me. I could have sworn I've seen reports of a bunch of mass graves being uncovered, the results of Hussein's henchmen. I could have sworn that sectarian violence amongst muslims has been an ongoing thing long before America arrived. I guess I was wrong about those things. It must have just been American propaganda. Yeah, that's it.

So Iraq was the garden of Eden before America arrived. And now it's our fault that muslims are killing each other.

If you say so. Because you know more than anyone else.

But John, why do you bother stating some facts, it is always the US and Israel at fault. No fault from the Muslim extremist camp, or decrying of massacres of muslims against muslims.

I said this before, there is a little known film named "voices of Iraq" It is interesting, and much in accordance to my Shia friends over there, or the Sunni in Ramadi

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Darius11 12]

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More figuratively, also yes. Iraq was relatively peaceful before we invaded. That peace was achieved by using an iron fist, but it was peaceful nonetheless.

That probably varies greatly on the individual's point of view. I doubt the Kurds would consider it true.

(not dirctly to you Kelpdiver)
I agree. It was not paradise and Saddam was not a good guy. However it just never seizes to amaze me the hypocrisy that some just fail to notice.

When those mass graves were being filled, when Saddam was using WMD in the 80s he was our friend. We even sided with Iraq. I just find it funny that people bring up the reasons not realizing that we supported Saddam when he was doing his worst crimes against humanity. Ot i guess it was ok to them back then now it is a crime.

we supported OBL and his regime when it was convenient, We have no issue with use of WMD (we supported Saddam when convenient) this list can go on and on.

Until people learn to admit the truth all we have is a bunch of hypocrites.


As for Life in Iraq. I remember they were in Baghdad the day before the invasion and life was normal.
Maybe not what we consider normal but it was better then it is now. A lot of people would have been alive if we simply listened to the UN inspectors. Off course the same group thought the UN was wrong and stupid, I guess history has a way of giving people the finger. The most troubling is after being wrong over and over again they still don’t get it.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Oh, pardon me. I could have sworn I've seen reports of a bunch of mass graves being uncovered, the results of Hussein's henchmen. I could have sworn that sectarian violence amongst muslims has been an ongoing thing long before America arrived. I guess I was wrong about those things. It must have just been American propaganda. Yeah, that's it.

So Iraq was the garden of Eden before America arrived.

Funny enough, the US has and had a big hand in a large majority of the dead in those mass graves.

You seem to all of a sudden conveniently forget that the US supplied many of the tools Saddam used to kill those people. I have a hard time believing the US supplied those tools and didn't know what they were going to be used for....

[Amazon 7]

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Funny enough, the US has and had a big hand in a large majority of the dead in those mass graves.

You seem to all of a sudden conveniently forget that the US supplied many of the tools Saddam used to kill those people. I have a hard time believing the US supplied those tools and didn't know what they were going to be used for....

Weeeeeeeeellllllll not really. Only a small percentage of the people killed by Sadaam in his country were done so with American weapons... MOST of the weapons from side arms to tanks and airplanes came from Eupore and the Soviet Bloc. WMD was NOT the preferred method in most of the muders.

Just wanted to get some reality into this conversation.

[Darius11 12]

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Just wanted to get some reality into this conversation.

You have to know reality first


Arming Iraq and the Path to War
A crisis always has a history, and the current crisis with Iraq is no exception. Below are some relevant dates.

September, 1980. Iraq invades Iran. The beginning of the Iraq-Iran war. [8]

February, 1982. Despite objections from congress, President Reagan removes Iraq from its list of known terrorist countries. [1]

December, 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq. [9]

1982-1988. Defense Intelligence Agency provides detailed information for Iraq on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for air strikes and bomb damage assessments. [4]

November, 1983. A National Security Directive states that the U.S would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran. [1] & [15]

November, 1983. Banca Nazionale del Lavoro of Italy and its Branch in Atlanta begin to funnel $5 billion in unreported loans to Iraq. Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the US government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs. [14]

October, 1983. The Reagan Administration begins secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs to Iraq. These shipments violated the Arms Export Control Act. [16]

November 1983. George Schultz, the Secretary of State, is given intelligence reports showing that Iraqi troops are daily using chemical weapons against the Iranians. [1]

December 20, 1983. Donald Rumsfeld , then a civilian and now Defense Secretary, meets with Saddam Hussein to assure him of US friendship and materials support. [1] & [15]

July, 1984. CIA begins giving Iraq intelligence necessary to calibrate its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. [19]

January 14, 1984. State Department memo acknowledges United States shipment of "dual-use" export hardware and technology. Dual use items are civilian items such as heavy trucks, armored ambulances and communications gear as well as industrial technology that can have a military application. [2]

March, 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons. [10]

May, 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax. [3]

May, 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq. [7]

March, 1987. President Reagan bows to the findings of the Tower Commission admitting the sale of arms to Iran in exchange for hostages. Oliver North uses the profits from the sale to fund an illegal war in Nicaragua. [17]

Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq. [1]

February, 1988. Saddam Hussein begins the "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds of northern Iraq. The Iraq regime used chemical weapons against the Kurds killing over 100,000 civilians and destroying over 1,200 Kurdish villages. [8]

April, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas. [7]

August, 1988. Four major battles were fought from April to August 1988, in which the Iraqis massively and effectively used chemical weapons to defeat the Iranians. Nerve gas and blister agents such as mustard gas are used. By this time the US Defense Intelligence Agency is heavily involved with Saddam Hussein in battle plan assistance, intelligence gathering and post battle debriefing. In the last major battle with of the war, 65,000 Iranians are killed, many with poison gas. Use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva accords of 1925. [6] & [13]

August, 1988. Iraq and Iran declare a cease fire. [8]

August, 1988. Five days after the cease fire Saddam Hussein sends his planes and helicopters to northern Iraq to begin massive chemical attacks against the Kurds. [8]

September, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade anthrax and botulinum to Iraq. [7]

September, 1988. Richard Murphy, Assistant Secretary of State: "The US-Iraqi relationship is... important to our long-term political and economic objectives." [15]

December, 1988. Dow chemical sells $1.5 million in pesticides to Iraq despite knowledge that these would be used in chemical weapons. [1]

July 25, 1990. US Ambassador to Baghdad meets with Hussein to assure him that President Bush "wanted better and deeper relations". Many believe this visit was a trap set for Hussein. A month later Hussein invaded Kuwait thinking the US would not respond. [12]

August, 1990 Iraq invades Kuwait. The precursor to the Gulf War. [8]

July, 1991 The Financial Times of London reveals that a Florida chemical company had produced and shipped cyanide to Iraq during the 80's using a special CIA courier. Cyanide was used extensively against the Iranians. [11]

August, 1991. Christopher Droguol of Atlanta's branch of Banca Nazionale del Lavoro is arrested for his role in supplying loans to Iraq for the purchase of military supplies. He is charged with 347 counts of felony. Droguol is found guilty, but US officials plead innocent of any knowledge of his crime. [14]

June, 1992. Ted Kopple of ABC Nightline reports: "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980's, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into [an aggressive power]." [5]

July, 1992. "The Bush administration deliberately, not inadvertently, helped to arm Iraq by allowing U.S. technology to be shipped to Iraqi military and to Iraqi defense factories... Throughout the course of the Bush administration, U.S. and foreign firms were granted export licenses to ship U.S. technology directly to Iraqi weapons facilities despite ample evidence showing that these factories were producing weapons." Representative Henry Gonzalez, Texas, testimony before the House. [18]

February, 1994. Senator Riegle from Michigan, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, testifies before the senate revealing large US shipments of dual-use biological and chemical agents to Iraq that may have been used against US troops in the Gulf War and probably was the cause of the illness known as Gulf War Syndrome.

August, 2002. "The use of gas [during the Iran-Iraq war] on the battle field by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern... We were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose". Colonel Walter Lang, former senior US Defense Intelligence officer tells the New York Times.



References:
1.Washingtonpost.com. December 30, 2002
2.Jonathan Broder. Nuclear times, Winter 1990-91
3.Kurt Nimno. AlterNet. September 23, 2002
4.Newyorktimes.com. August 29, 2002
5.ABC Nightline. June9, 1992
6.Counter Punch, October 10, 2002
7.Riegle Report: Dual Use Exports. Senate Committee on Banking. May 25, 1994
8.Timeline: A walk Through Iraq's History. U.S. Department of State
9.Doing Business: The Arming of Iraq. Daniel Robichear
10.Glen Rangwala. Labor Left Briefing, 16 September, 2002
11.Financial Times of London. July 3, 1991
12.Elson E. Boles. Counter Punch. October 10, 2002
13.Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988. Iranchamber.com
14.Columbia Journalism Review. March/April 1993. Iraqgate
15.Times Online. December 31, 2002. How U.S. Helped Iraq Build Deadly Arsenal
16.Bush's Secret Mission. The New Yorker Magazine. November 2, 1992
17.Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia: Iran-Contra Affair
18.Congressional Record. July 27, 1992. Representative Henry B. Gonzalez
19.Bob Woodward. CIA Aiding Iraq in Persian Gulf War. Washington Post. 15 December, 1986
20.Case Study: The Anfal Campaign. www.gendercide.com

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Amazon 7]

Like I said... MOST of the weapons came from elsewhere..

But in the long run.. they were killing Iranians... and that was a good thing at the time.

Pay back was a bitch

[Darius11 12]

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Like I said... MOST of the weapons came from elsewhere..

But in the long run.. they were killing Iranians... and that was a good thing at the time.

Pay back was a bitch

HAHAHA what an intelligent comment.
So even killing Iranian civilians was a good idea? At least now we know where you stand.

You only have issues when Americans get killed every one else fuckem.

How does that song go “ I see your true colors shining through”.

Now you know why i have to use the word Hypocrite so much.

Hey don’t let the facts get in the way of your thinking ok.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Amazon 7]

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HAHAHA what an intelligent comment.
So even killing Iranian civilians was a good idea? At least now we know where you stand.

DUDE.. get over it...

Its called WAR... in war you kill your enemy.... or are you suggesting the only the Iranians could kill their enemies.. and the other side could not.. Talk about HYPOCRISY

Remember now the Iranian "students" are the ones who fucked themselves over..by acting like a bunch of thugs and taking DIPLOMATIC personell as HOSTAGES and after that we were no longer supporting the Iranians.. Period.... no more spare parts for all of the Shahs little toys.

The Iranian people are the ones who chose the Theocracy over a secular state... and wanted the Ayatollahs to return them to 7th century glory

[Darius11 12]

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DUDE.. get over it...

You have zero facts to back up what you state. "Get over it" is the best you can come up with I am not surprised. Weak thats all

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Its called WAR

When did the US declare war on Iran?

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Remember now the Iranian "students" are the ones who fucked themselves over..by acting like a bunch of thugs and taking DIPLOMATIC personell as HOSTAGES and after that we were no longer supporting the Iranians.. Period.... no more spare parts for all of the Shahs little toys.

The Iranian people are the ones who chose the Theocracy over a secular state... and wanted the Ayatollahs to return them to 7th century glory

If that’s what the majority wants it is called Democracy. The world doesn't revolve around what you think they should do.

Thats what they wanted at the time. Thats why they took the US Embassy which held US spies and people who wanted to detract the revolution. Why do you think the US embassy was attacked and no one else?


Your arguments tend to lack more and more logic day by day, not to mention you simply denied the facts and mentioned as long as we were killing Iranians your fine with it. That is how we have genocide in this world people who think that way. Kill them all as long as it is not us. Truly sad

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Amazon 7]

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When did the US declare war on Iran?

We did not have to.. it was done thru surrogates.. Just like the Iranians Hezbollah did when they killed so many Americans who were there trying to separate the warring factions to keep them from igniting a larger war in Lebanon. The Iranians supported that.. killing the great Satan... just like they called everyone in our embassy.. just as YOU did... SPIES.

Does that give us the right to take over all the fucking embassies in Washington because each country has their spies there?

If the Iranians wanted to act like thugs and spit all over the conventions of diplomacy that EVERY other country has abided by and take hostages.. then so be it..Payback for those actions thru our surrogates was pretty high in Iranian lives.. and JUSTIFIED. After the barracks boming we helped anyone there was out there that would pay the son of a bitches back.
The friend of my enemy is my friend

DEM is DA FACTS.

[Darius11 12]

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just like they called everyone in our embassy.. just as YOU did... SPIES.

You jumping around again according to above you sound surprised that there were spies in the US Embassy.

Below it seems you accept it as the norm..........Well which is it?

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Does that give us the right to take over all the fucking embassies in Washington because each country has their spies there?

I think are reaction would be much harsher if there were active spies with power and influence who were trying to over throw our government.

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The friend of my enemy is my friend

I think you mean the enemy oif my enemy is my friend.

We have seen what that type of mentality has done for us in the past, and that’s kind of the point some never learn that there is a better way. We call people who don’t EVER learn from there mistakes many things but I know smart is not one of them.

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DEM is DA FACTS

Here is the Definition for Facts.

1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law. Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Amazon 7]

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You jumping around again according to above you sound surprised that there were spies in the US Embassy.

Below it seems you accept it as the norm..........Well which is it?

Oh WAAAAHHHH

So you think ALL of our diplomats are spies.. that is what you said.. and your revolutionay guard buddies students took them hostage.. AGAINST international LAW .
Is it anywonder that since your friends attacked us in this way that we would support ANYONE willing to deal out some payback....especially after the same people got themselves some like minded asswipes in Lebanon to murder a WHOLE bunch of Americans.

Dirty business calling people the The Great Satan.. and spies.. when the Iranians have had their own douche bags running all over this and other countries with their radical islamic SPIES that seek to do more harm to the Great Satan etc.

I submit we have been in a cold war with the Axis of Evil since at least 1979.. and since they are the enemy...yes.. KILL them all and let God sort them out.

You no makee the peace... you get to suffer the war.