TrophyHusband 0 #26 January 31, 2008 constant deployments will bring down moral reguardless of the party affiliatioin of the president. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,483 #27 January 31, 2008 Hory shit!! You're right, Dave. Where the hell was my... Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #28 February 1, 2008 Quote Is there really an issue here? Military personnel are being subjected to greater stress and hardship than they might like - so there is a small, yet still significant, increase in suicides. If a recession came about, you'd expect the same the civilian populace. Im-ever-ho, yes, there is an issue, albeit not a partisan one. 9.8/100k to 17.5/100k is an increase of >75%. From FY06 to FY07, there was a $40M drop in funding for the Military Operations Medicine (MOM) Research Program, which extends beyond PTSD & TBI (btw there is a {small} ongoing collaborative effort with UK’s Porton Down on blast-induced brain injury) to include things like Wellness and Health Promotion to Biotechnology for Near-Real-Time Predictive Toxicology to Neck Protection with Advanced Helmet and Vehicle Systems to Operational Safety and Threat Countermeasures for Next-Generation Lasers. (It’s all in the publicly available R-forms submitted to Congress.) I'm also curious as to whether there has been a comparable increase in suicide rate observed in the USMC? VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]'s new sig lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #29 February 1, 2008 Quote The DefenseLink article tells me that there were about 70 soldiers who were unhappier than the year before. Naturally the good Doc just extrapolates that to the entire population. That's what happens when personal politics clouds sound science. Or … perhaps alternatively … you demonstrated that the Speakers Corner variant of the peer-review process works ? The AP article is akin to a meta-analysis of the DefenseLink pseudo-primary data. If one extends/stretches the analogy, [kallend]’s post is a conclusion, and you were the peer-reviewer who just sent his conclusions back as “Reject w/out further consideration” in red ink. My recommendation – in the Speakers Corner review process scenario – was “resubmit with substantial revisions.” VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]'s new sig lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #30 February 1, 2008 QuoteConversely, if enlistment is up by 25%, wouldn't the percentage of suicides increase accordingly? How do you figure that?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #31 February 1, 2008 Quoteconstant deployments will bring down moral reguardless of the party affiliatioin of the president. Last time I checked, the CinC was the President, and was directly responsible for the constant deployments.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #32 February 1, 2008 QuoteThat's the worst thread you've started Doc. You just came down a few pegs in my book. Been in for 20 years April - In two branches. And two wars. And uh...wrong. We were the most miserable in the last 20 years under Clinton. We are much happier fighting than being broke - it's what we do. But I'm sure you know that with your extensive mil...oh. Nevermind. I'm very disappointed - you're normally a learned adversary. This is troll bullshit. Suicides at an ALL TIME HIGH. Very high rates of self inflicted injuries. Funny you should think there's no evidence of a morale problem.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #33 February 1, 2008 Well, I can tell you that TBI is becoming a popular topic - regarding USMC - no idea. But going back to TBi - what about improvised Claymores I've detonated for example? I've literally been sat on top of them. What about the infantry men posting grenades? Does it apply to them - of course it must - which makes it either a load of bollox or a massive payout 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #34 February 1, 2008 QuoteThe AP article is akin to a meta-analysis of the DefenseLink pseudo-primary data. If one extends/stretches the analogy,..... I'm an engineer. Please stop using big words like that or provide a translation. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #35 February 1, 2008 Quote I'm an engineer. Please stop using big words like that or provide a translation. Thanks for the feedback. If I can’t communicate my ideas effectively, then I’ve failed the “So What? Who Cares?” test. VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]'s new sig lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #36 February 1, 2008 QuoteQuoteconstant deployments will bring down moral reguardless of the party affiliatioin of the president. Last time I checked, the CinC was the President, and was directly responsible for the constant deployments. your statement is true and so is mine. whether a cinc who keeps troops deployed is a republican or democrat means nothing. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,483 #37 February 1, 2008 Quote How do you figure that? I obviously didn't. Total cranium rectum inversion. As livendave pointed out - X per 100,000 Pay attention in class! Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #38 February 1, 2008 Quote But going back to TBI - what about improvised Claymores I've detonated for example? I've literally been sat on top of them. Yes, detonation of Claymores can cause concussive (from the shock wave) injuries. IIRC, the most common injury is ruptured ear drums. I don’t know if Claymore mines can cause (mild or severe) Traumatic Brain Injury, which is basically when the shock causes the brain to bounce off the skull. TBI is usually associated with a brief loss of consciousness or noticeable altered mental state, i.e., behaving as if one’s drunk when no alcohol has been consumed. A significant reason that TBI is emerging as a “signature issue” of OIF and, to a lesser extent, OEF is that soldiers and marines who in past conflicts would likely have died from blast-related injuries are surviving, due to a combination of improved protective equipment and improved field medicine. For example, some high level data: WWII >25% injured soldiers died before reaching field hospital, by Vietnam that decreased to ~19%. During Desert Storm it remained about the same as Vietnam. In OIF/OEF (through end of 2005), it has decreased to ~12.5%. [Source: then-MG Eric Schoomaker] In late 2005, “Factor Seven” to control hemorrhage began to see more extensive use (specifically: rhFVIIa clotting agent) and was expected to decrease that number even more. There’s some really cool R&D being done – on relatively small amount of $ -- to push stuff out to the field. VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]'s new sig lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #39 February 1, 2008 I'd rather their colleages noticed the situation first and were able to allow a more positive outcome. As I'd also prefer a more effective system to help personnel deal with any such issues. And I'm sure you would too, so I'm not having a dig. I suppose we're getting beyond the days of 'man the fuck up, wet pants' being an effective means of advice. But I often wonder - sometimes that attitude is exactly what's needed - unfortunately there's less personnel that'd react positively to it. Quote The thing is. most of the time when soldiers off themselves, they put up a very good front, my teammates can tell as soon as I walk in the door, before I even open my mouth when my girlfriend and I had a fight last night. But I don't hide it when I'm not in a good mood, I know my boys will go out of their way to make sure I'm good to go. Every time I've seen a suicide everyone says the same thing, that they were their normal chipper self and it caught everyone off guard. There are more than enough programs to help people having issues, my former battalion chaplain and I were good friends despite the fact taht I'm not a christian. He didn't come around to "save" people, he would make sure he got one on one time with every soldier and would ask about family life, the work environment, the command climate, and anything else that would negatively affect someone. When someone wants to off themselves there really isn't much to be done unfortunately.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1969912 0 #40 February 1, 2008 Quote Quote I'm an engineer. Please stop using big words like that or provide a translation. Thanks for the feedback. If I can’t communicate my ideas effectively, then I’ve failed the “So What? Who Cares?” test. VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]'s new sig lines There were supposed to be some of these things in my post, but I forgot 'em. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #41 February 1, 2008 "Stress card!!! Stress card!!!" Dan (and others with direct experience) - do you think that Basic/AIT in today's Army does an adequate job in preparing troops for the stress of combat? How well are you seeing new soldiers manage the situation?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #42 February 1, 2008 QuoteQuoteconstant deployments will bring down moral reguardless of the party affiliatioin of the president. Last time I checked, the CinC was the President, and was directly responsible for the constant deployments. Congress still has to approve the action and they also control the purse-strings.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #43 February 1, 2008 Quote"Stress card!!! Stress card!!!" Dan (and others with direct experience) - do you think that Basic/AIT in today's Army does an adequate job in preparing troops for the stress of combat? How well are you seeing new soldiers manage the situation? I sure hope it is better than what we had in '69. Extremely little to nothing in basic, nothing whatsoever in AIT. OTOH, WTF? You sign up for military duty. Then you wimp out on it at crunch time? Off yourself, fool. Do NOT join me in the field. My morale would be more badly shaken having to deal with a wimp bucking out on me when I needed him the most than anything the brass or politicians could do. I think blaming others for your mental weakness is a cop out and an intentional misdirection to avoid having to face yourself in the mirror. If you're mentally weak, fine. No problem. Don't sign up for something that requires mental strength and we'll all be happier.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #44 February 1, 2008 I missed the additional counter-hypothesis suggested in your post …. because I was paying attention to my speculation that the increased suicide rate is due to increased PTSD from IED-induced TBI. If one asserts that low morale (the independent variable) correlates with increased suicide rate (a dependent variable), one would reasonably expect to observe a decrease in *re*-enlistment rates (another dependent variable). As we know, re-enlistment rates, however, have been “remarkably” high over the last few years, most notably among those soldiers deployed in combat areas. (Nota bene: initial enlistment rates are a separate issues, & morale is not the sole contributing factor to re-enlistment rates.) This increase re-enlistment rate counter-argument (to the correlation asserted in the original post) suggests that increased suicide incidence is an independent from morale (at least in this situation). I suspect that you will appreciate the underlying logic. So now we have at least 3 different speculative causal explanations for the observed increased suicide rate: (1) stress of repeated deployment, which may correlate with training or other factors; (2) increased PTSD connected with IED-induced TBI; (3) or low morale; AND at least one counter-argument. VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]'s new sig lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,483 #45 February 1, 2008 Why miss nergirl, I do declare, I believe you could wave your magical prose over my ridiculous response and turn it into a rainbow called segue. And for that, I do thank you. Quote& morale is not the sole contributing factor to re-enlistment rates. Very true. I do believe it is about youth, money and future promises. And, IMO - we may want to be carerful of the promissory notes we sign. As baby boomers continue to nestle into the SS system, we're going to create a younger generation nestling into the VA system (which at 100% also gets you into the SS system) and you and I will find ourselves becoming the sandwich generation. Oops.. too late.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,146 #46 February 1, 2008 QuoteI missed the additional counter-hypothesis suggested in your post …. because I was paying attention to my speculation that the increased suicide rate is due to increased PTSD from IED-induced TBI. If one asserts that low morale (the independent variable) correlates with increased suicide rate (a dependent variable), one would reasonably expect to observe a decrease in *re*-enlistment rates (another dependent variable). As we know, re-enlistment rates, however, have been “remarkably” high over the last few years, most notably among those soldiers deployed in combat areas. Before drawing any conclusions you might want to check on the increases in re-enlistment bonuses the Pentagon is having to pay to get the high re-enlistment rates. stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA013058 shows that bonuses ahev a measurable, statistically significant effect.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #47 February 1, 2008 Quote Before drawing any conclusions you might want to check on the increases in re-enlistment bonuses the Pentagon is having to pay to get the high re-enlistment rates. You're absolutely correct ... & I did back in Sept: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2949408;search_string=re-enlistment;#2949408, along with the Army's stop-loss program & actions of Army staff that predate OEF/OIF. That's the implied part of the 2nd clause of my NB above: "... & morale is not the sole contributing factor to re-enlistment rates." VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]’s new sig lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,146 #48 February 1, 2008 QuoteQuoteBefore drawing any conclusions you might want to check on the increases in re-enlistment bonuses the Pentagon is having to pay to get the high re-enlistment rates. You're absolutely correct ... I love it when you talk like that! Quote & I did back in Sept: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2949408;search_string=re-enlistment;#2949408, along with the Army's stop-loss program & actions of Army staff that predate OEF/OIF. That's the implied part of the 2nd clause of my NB above: "... & morale is not the sole contributing factor to re-enlistment rates." VR/Marg Yes, some of the SRBs are quite phenomenal, and a huge increase over 6 years ago.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #49 February 1, 2008 U.S. Army, Active Duty, 21 years and one month from 1 Oct '86 to 31 Oct '07 No! Basic and Combat Arms AIT does not do well enough to "teach the stress". The services (with the USMC exception of course) have softened the training to retian more through Basic and on to a unit (where we had to weed 'em out, if we couldn't fix 'em). With the type of war the Country is in now the WHOLE DOD needs to be trained in Combat Operations. All this is my "Opinion", of course.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #50 February 1, 2008 Thanks for the reply, Matt - I appreciate it. I see it here in the Balkans, as well. Pretty much every rotation, there's at least one that goes out to a bunker in the middle of the night and....Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
1969912 0 #40 February 1, 2008 Quote Quote I'm an engineer. Please stop using big words like that or provide a translation. Thanks for the feedback. If I can’t communicate my ideas effectively, then I’ve failed the “So What? Who Cares?” test. VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]'s new sig lines There were supposed to be some of these things in my post, but I forgot 'em. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #41 February 1, 2008 "Stress card!!! Stress card!!!" Dan (and others with direct experience) - do you think that Basic/AIT in today's Army does an adequate job in preparing troops for the stress of combat? How well are you seeing new soldiers manage the situation?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #42 February 1, 2008 QuoteQuoteconstant deployments will bring down moral reguardless of the party affiliatioin of the president. Last time I checked, the CinC was the President, and was directly responsible for the constant deployments. Congress still has to approve the action and they also control the purse-strings.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #43 February 1, 2008 Quote"Stress card!!! Stress card!!!" Dan (and others with direct experience) - do you think that Basic/AIT in today's Army does an adequate job in preparing troops for the stress of combat? How well are you seeing new soldiers manage the situation? I sure hope it is better than what we had in '69. Extremely little to nothing in basic, nothing whatsoever in AIT. OTOH, WTF? You sign up for military duty. Then you wimp out on it at crunch time? Off yourself, fool. Do NOT join me in the field. My morale would be more badly shaken having to deal with a wimp bucking out on me when I needed him the most than anything the brass or politicians could do. I think blaming others for your mental weakness is a cop out and an intentional misdirection to avoid having to face yourself in the mirror. If you're mentally weak, fine. No problem. Don't sign up for something that requires mental strength and we'll all be happier.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #44 February 1, 2008 I missed the additional counter-hypothesis suggested in your post …. because I was paying attention to my speculation that the increased suicide rate is due to increased PTSD from IED-induced TBI. If one asserts that low morale (the independent variable) correlates with increased suicide rate (a dependent variable), one would reasonably expect to observe a decrease in *re*-enlistment rates (another dependent variable). As we know, re-enlistment rates, however, have been “remarkably” high over the last few years, most notably among those soldiers deployed in combat areas. (Nota bene: initial enlistment rates are a separate issues, & morale is not the sole contributing factor to re-enlistment rates.) This increase re-enlistment rate counter-argument (to the correlation asserted in the original post) suggests that increased suicide incidence is an independent from morale (at least in this situation). I suspect that you will appreciate the underlying logic. So now we have at least 3 different speculative causal explanations for the observed increased suicide rate: (1) stress of repeated deployment, which may correlate with training or other factors; (2) increased PTSD connected with IED-induced TBI; (3) or low morale; AND at least one counter-argument. VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]'s new sig lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,483 #45 February 1, 2008 Why miss nergirl, I do declare, I believe you could wave your magical prose over my ridiculous response and turn it into a rainbow called segue. And for that, I do thank you. Quote& morale is not the sole contributing factor to re-enlistment rates. Very true. I do believe it is about youth, money and future promises. And, IMO - we may want to be carerful of the promissory notes we sign. As baby boomers continue to nestle into the SS system, we're going to create a younger generation nestling into the VA system (which at 100% also gets you into the SS system) and you and I will find ourselves becoming the sandwich generation. Oops.. too late.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #46 February 1, 2008 QuoteI missed the additional counter-hypothesis suggested in your post …. because I was paying attention to my speculation that the increased suicide rate is due to increased PTSD from IED-induced TBI. If one asserts that low morale (the independent variable) correlates with increased suicide rate (a dependent variable), one would reasonably expect to observe a decrease in *re*-enlistment rates (another dependent variable). As we know, re-enlistment rates, however, have been “remarkably” high over the last few years, most notably among those soldiers deployed in combat areas. Before drawing any conclusions you might want to check on the increases in re-enlistment bonuses the Pentagon is having to pay to get the high re-enlistment rates. stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA013058 shows that bonuses ahev a measurable, statistically significant effect.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #47 February 1, 2008 Quote Before drawing any conclusions you might want to check on the increases in re-enlistment bonuses the Pentagon is having to pay to get the high re-enlistment rates. You're absolutely correct ... & I did back in Sept: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2949408;search_string=re-enlistment;#2949408, along with the Army's stop-loss program & actions of Army staff that predate OEF/OIF. That's the implied part of the 2nd clause of my NB above: "... & morale is not the sole contributing factor to re-enlistment rates." VR/Marg Just see [idrankwhat] & [lawrocket]’s new sig lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #48 February 1, 2008 QuoteQuoteBefore drawing any conclusions you might want to check on the increases in re-enlistment bonuses the Pentagon is having to pay to get the high re-enlistment rates. You're absolutely correct ... I love it when you talk like that! Quote & I did back in Sept: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2949408;search_string=re-enlistment;#2949408, along with the Army's stop-loss program & actions of Army staff that predate OEF/OIF. That's the implied part of the 2nd clause of my NB above: "... & morale is not the sole contributing factor to re-enlistment rates." VR/Marg Yes, some of the SRBs are quite phenomenal, and a huge increase over 6 years ago.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #49 February 1, 2008 U.S. Army, Active Duty, 21 years and one month from 1 Oct '86 to 31 Oct '07 No! Basic and Combat Arms AIT does not do well enough to "teach the stress". The services (with the USMC exception of course) have softened the training to retian more through Basic and on to a unit (where we had to weed 'em out, if we couldn't fix 'em). With the type of war the Country is in now the WHOLE DOD needs to be trained in Combat Operations. All this is my "Opinion", of course.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #50 February 1, 2008 Thanks for the reply, Matt - I appreciate it. I see it here in the Balkans, as well. Pretty much every rotation, there's at least one that goes out to a bunker in the middle of the night and....Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
