Army morale

[kallend 2,146]

ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jrRijfpxg8ZdUbcDpGbmnEpYPH9wD8UGTM282

So much for troop morale being higher under GOP administrations.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[piper17 1]

Interesting. Now, how about some perspective.

What is the rate amongst similar demographics (males & females 18-34) in the general population?

This sounds like the NYT article about the high number of "murders" committed by returning US military personnel....until it was compared to comparable demographic data. Then, it seemed that returning military personnel committed murder at a significantly lower rate than the same demographics in the general population. AND, many of the so-called murders weren't even murders but self-defense and other circumstances.

Figures lie and liars figure!

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[lawrocket 3]

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So much for troop morale being higher under GOP administrations

Yeah. Nobody had higher morale than those draftees in 1968...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,146]

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Interesting. Now, how about some perspective.

What is the rate amongst similar demographics (males & females 18-34) in the general population?

I'm sure we'll all be interested when you report the numbers to us.

However, this is about a CHANGE within the organization.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

Yeah like it was sky high morale under Nixon and Ford

[GQ_jumper 4]

The man at the top of the food chain has little to no control over the moral of the individual soldier, if soldiers are weak mentally than taking them to combat is only going to expose that weakness and push them to the breaking point. What are we supposed to do put all wars on hol until all the soldiers who may be involved have stated how they personally feel the war would affect them? Call me cold-hearted but I'd rather they reach the breaking point and kill themselves than go out and snap under fire and cost someone who had the will to stand and fight their life.

how do you think the morale would change if clinton gets elected?

Blaming this on the administration is about as logical as blaming someone's AFF instructor because someone did a low hook turn on jump number 5000.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[vortexring 0]

Considering that these operations could last a full career is it any surprise the effect this might have on morale?

Pre 9/11 how many people signed on expecting to be almost continually deployed on operations?

I still can't understand how the married personnel tolerate 15 month tours...

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Para_Frog 1]

That's the worst thread you've started Doc. You just came down a few pegs in my book.

Been in for 20 years April - In two branches. And two wars.

And uh...wrong. We were the most miserable in the last 20 years under Clinton. We are much happier fighting than being broke - it's what we do. But I'm sure you know that with your extensive mil...oh. Nevermind.

I'm very disappointed - you're normally a learned adversary. This is troll bullshit.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[nerdgirl 0]

Actual incidence doesn’t really seem to be an issue … particularly given that the AP article cites as its source DefenseLINK, which “is the official web site for the Department of Defense and the starting point for finding U.S. military information online.”

I’m less than confident (to put it diplomatically) that the correlation asserted in the thread title/initial post is correct … nevermind causality.

My *speculation* is that the increased incidence of suicide and suicide attempts correlates with PTSD & Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI).

This morning’s NPR Morning Edition featured a story, “Soldiers' Head Injuries May Contribute to PTSD,” discussing a new study from the New England Journal of Medicine, “Mild Traumatic Brain Injury in U.S. Soldiers Returning from Iraq,” which is available online free. {I have not yet had a chance to look at the primary data.}

Nota bene: The NEJM study’s authors are all affiliated with the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, U.S. Army Medical Research and Materiel Command and include one DoD civilian and five active duty Army officers:

COL Charles W. Hoge, M.D.,
MAJ Dennis McGurk, Ph.D.,
MAJ Jeffrey L. Thomas, Ph.D.,
Anthony L. Cox, M.S.W.,
LTC Charles C. Engel, M.D., M.P.H.,
LTC Carl A. Castro, Ph.D.

* Study was funded by the Army through Military Operations Medicine (MOM) Research Program on “Maintaining Warfighter Mental Health and Psychological Resilience.”

From NPR:

“Traumatic brain injury has been labeled the signature injury of the Iraq war. It's estimated that between 10 percent and 20 percent of soldiers who have served in Iraq have suffered from this kind of wound.

“Now, a new study published in the New England Journal of Medicine suggests that even minor traumatic brain injuries, like concussions, may be associated with long-term health problems, specifically post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD.

“Researcher Charles Hoge surveyed more than 2,000 Army infantry soldiers who had returned from Iraq, and found that three to four months after their return, 43.9 percent of those who had experienced a concussion met the criteria for PTSD. Hoge, chief of psychiatry at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, characterized this as ‘a very high rate.’[emphasis - nerdgirl]

“It's difficult to say exactly what is going on here, Hoge says. It could simply be that concussions usually happen during the kind of intense battles that also produce trauma, and so traumatic battles produce both head injury and PTSD. Or the research may indicate that concussions contribute to PTSD.

“David Hovda, a professor of neurosurgery at University of California, Los Angeles, who has spent his life studying brain trauma, points out that there are real chemical changes to the brain in the wake of a concussion.

“‘It causes all the neurons — which are the cells in the brain — to fire. It's kinda like having a mini seizure,’ he says. ‘And this creates a change in the chemistry inside the brain, which can have long-term consequences with regards to how the brain responds to emotions.’

“While Hovda is not saying that concussions cause PTSD, he does believe that the physical and emotional changes that are the typical products of concussion — lethargy, anxiety, depression — may inhibit a person's ability to deal with a traumatic experience. [emphasis nerdgirl]

“‘If you are an individual who is experiencing these tremendous emotional changes that are associated with PTSD, and you are fighting also these problems associated with mild traumatic brain injury, it becomes very difficult to cope with the symptoms, and it's much harder for them to recover,’ Hovda says.

“At this early date, it's impossible to say which of these explanations is correct. What is clear is that a large number of soldiers who have served in Iraq have suffered mild traumatic brain injury — concussions and other small injuries which appear to pass quickly, but which may in fact linger in ways that had not been anticipated.”

TBI associated with IEDs and other injuries in OIF may be a repeat candidate for most under-reported story … again …

VR/Marg


Just see [idrankwhat]’s new sig line

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[vortexring 0]

I'd rather their colleages noticed the situation first and were able to allow a more positive outcome.

As I'd also prefer a more effective system to help personnel deal with any such issues.

And I'm sure you would too, so I'm not having a dig. I suppose we're getting beyond the days of 'man the fuck up, wet pants' being an effective means of advice. But I often wonder - sometimes that attitude is exactly what's needed - unfortunately there's less personnel that'd react positively to it.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Para_Frog 1]

The DefenseLink article tells me that there were about 70 soldiers who were unhappier than the year before.

Naturally the good Doc just extrapolates that to the entire population. That's what happens when personal politics clouds sound science.

Man - This only leaves Bill and Jeanne in my "liberals who's opinion I'll actually listen to" column. Bummer.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[nerdgirl 0]

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Interesting. Now, how about some perspective.

What is the rate amongst similar demographics (males & females 18-34) in the general population?

It’s a reasonable question:

USA Today asked it as well:

(all emphasis nerdgirl)

“From a suicide rate of 9.8 per 100,000 active-duty soldiers in 2001 -- the lowest rate on record -- the Army reached an all-time high of 17.5 suicides per 100,000 active-duty soldiers in 2006."

“The number of attempted suicides among soldiers is six times higher than it was at the start of the Iraq war, with about 2,100 soldiers on record as having intentionally injured themselves or tried to take their own lives, according to Army data quoted by [Dana Priest’s article in the Washington] Post.

“By comparison, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says there were 11.05 suicides for every 100,000 people in the United States in 2005.

“Last year, the Army reported that suicide was the No. 3 cause of death among members of the National Guard.”

So yes, the recent increase in incidence rate is higher among soldiers than the civilian population.

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Figures lie and liars figure!

Sometimes yes ... sometimes no. But I do concur w/r/t maintaining skepticism.

VR/Marg

Just see [idrankwhat]'s new sig line

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[BIGUN 1,483]

Conversely, if enlistment is up by 25%, wouldn't the percentage of suicides increase accordingly?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[lawrocket 3]

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Yeah like it was sky high morale under Nixon and Ford

I know. From about 67-82 morale was pretty bad - REALLY bad. Then it started to fall again after the USSR breakup. Then picked up and faded with the service downsizing, base closures, etc. Then picked up again after 9/11. Now it's down again.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[vortexring 0]

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Quote

Interesting. Now, how about some perspective.

What is the rate amongst similar demographics (males & females 18-34) in the general population?

It’s a reasonable question:

USA Today asked it as well:

(all emphasis nerdgirl)

“From a suicide rate of 9.8 per 100,000 active-duty soldiers in 2001 -- the lowest rate on record -- the Army reached an all-time high of 17.5 suicides per 100,000 active-duty soldiers in 2006."

“The number of attempted suicides among soldiers is six times higher than it was at the start of the Iraq war, with about 2,100 soldiers on record as having intentionally injured themselves or tried to take their own lives, according to Army data quoted by [Dana Priest’s article in the Washington] Post.

“By comparison, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says there were 11.05 suicides for every 100,000 people in the United States in 2005.

“Last year, the Army reported that suicide was the No. 3 cause of death among members of the National Guard.”

So yes, the recent increase in incidence rate is higher among soldiers than the civilian population.

Quote

Figures lie and liars figure!

Sometimes yes ... sometimes no. But I do concur w/r/t maintaining skepticism.

VR/Marg

Just see [idrankwhat]'s new sig line

Is there really an issue here? Military personnel are being subjected to greater stress and hardship than they might like - so there is a small, yet still significant, increase in suicides. If a recession came about, you'd expect the same the civilian populace.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Para_Frog 1]

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Military personnel are being subjected to greater stress and hardship than they might like - so there is a small, yet still significant, increase in suicides. If a recession came about, you'd expect the same the civilian populace.

Exactly - but that's GW's fault too - So the good doc will somehow equate human suffering to the length of fur on the Bush family dog...or something...and call it an epiphany of modern research.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[vortexring 0]

Wowsers - I've gone green.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Amazon 7]

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TBI associated with IEDs and other injuries in OIF may be a repeat candidate for most under-reported story … again …

At some point.. this nation needs to take better care of those who do step up and serve this country.

I do like the actions of my Senator on this issue. Patty Murray has actually world in a VA hospital... and has seen how bad it is.. first hand.

[Para_Frog 1]

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Patty Murray.

I'll take my chances with our foot-tapper.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[Amazon 7]

You would lose out... check her record on veterans issues.

Here...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2003992829_vetsmurray04.html

Some people DO care about those who have served and she walks the walk..

[Para_Frog 1]

Patty Murray:
Veterans Issues
(Back to top)

Date Bill Title Vote
10/01/2007 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 Y
02/02/2006 Tax Rate Extension Amendment Y
11/17/2005 Additional Funding For Veterans Amendment Y
10/05/2005 Health Care for Veterans Amendment Y

Larry Craig:
Veterans Issues
(Back to top)

Date Bill Title Vote
10/01/2007 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 Y
02/02/2006 Tax Rate Extension Amendment N
11/17/2005 Additional Funding For Veterans Amendment N
10/05/2005 Health Care for Veterans Amendment N


Based on this...not knowing the earmarks...you appear to be right. I mean correct - sorry.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[Amazon 7]

AS a note from the link above....



One of her nemeses has been Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, who serves with Murray on the Veterans Affairs Committee.

In June, Craig opposed Murray's move to increase the number of veterans eligible for care by more than 200,000, on the grounds that adding those patients would overwhelm the system.

"It appears that the majority's answer to long lines at VA medical centers is simply to get more people standing in line," he said in a statement.

But Craig's power has been crippled by the scandal over his guilty plea to disorderly conduct in a bathroom sex sting this summer in a Minneapolis airport.

"Told you so" moment

Murray's best "I told you so" moment came in 2005.

She claimed that the 2006 budget proposed by President Bush low-balled the amount the VA needed by about $1 billion.

Jim Nicholson, then-secretary of the VA, testified before the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee and casually dismissed Murray's concerns.

Murray didn't buy it. Over the next three months she pummeled Republican leaders in speeches and forums and introduced four separate emergency-funding proposals. They all lost.

Then in mid-June, the administration abruptly announced it needed another $1.5 billion for the VA budget.

Republican senators commended Murray on the Senate floor. Meanwhile, Nicholson became Murray's target whenever any problem cropped up at the VA.

He resigned in July and has declined to comment about Murray.

[Amazon 7]

Personally I dont want to see the vets of your generation.. subjected to the crap that vets in my generation faced.

Far too many of them that I knew......had the mantra... " I died in Vietnam.. and didnt even know it"

Far more have ended up on the streets.... or recluses back in the woods somewhere because they had not dealt with their PTSD

[Para_Frog 1]

True Dat.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[livendive 8]

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Conversely, if enlistment is up by 25%, wouldn't the percentage of suicides increase accordingly?

No. The number of total suicides would increase, but barring other factors, the rate (be it percentage or suicides per 100,000) should remain constant.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)