What will you do with YOUR economic stimulus money?

[Zipp0 1]

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the rich are still paying the lion's share of the tax burden

First let apologize as I am jumping in to this discussion and I have not read every post.

I do believe the Middle Class pay the biggest share of the total taxes is this not correct?

No. I believe what I've read is that the top 1/4 pays 3/4 of the tax burden. It's close to an 80/20 rule. (Supported by mnealtx's corrected post). The bottom pays almost nothing. Sure they have some payroll deduction, but a huge portion of that gets returned at the end of the year.

If you have $1 and I take a dime, it hurts a lot more than if you have $100 and I take $25.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[livendive 8]

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the rich are still paying the lion's share of the tax burden

First let apologize as I am jumping in to this discussion and I have not read every post.

I do believe the Middle Class pay the biggest share of the total taxes is this not correct?

No. I believe what I've read is that the top 1/4 pays 3/4 of the tax burden. It's close to an 80/20 rule. (Supported by mnealtx's corrected post). The bottom pays almost nothing. Sure they have some payroll deduction, but a huge portion of that gets returned at the end of the year.

If you have $1 and I take a dime, it hurts a lot more than if you have $100 and I take $25.

That's a nice theory and it sells well, but I suspect the real reason it's set up this way is 80% of the population can vote a lot more times than 20% of the population.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[joedirt 0]

***
I do believe the Middle Class pay the biggest share of the total taxes is this not correct?
***

Propaganda hard at work.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you have $1 and I take a dime, it hurts a lot more than if you have $100 and I take $25.

But to flesh out this bullshit example a little further.

1) I did very little for this dollar, and lost 4 cents.

2) I did very much for this 100$, and lost $40, paying 100 times as much.

---
In any event, if you're going to cut taxes, why would you reduce it more for the guy who only paid a dime rather than the one who paid in $25?

[kallend 2,150]

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Nothing, I don't seem to qualify.

So, you are one of those rich liberals!

You have a problem with that?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,120]

>I believe what I've read is that the top 1/4 pays 3/4 of the tax burden.

Roughly correct, but that top 1/4 includes much of the middle class, since the really rich make up a tiny percentage of that upper 3/4. Where you draw the "middle class" vs "wealthy" line determines whether the statement "the middle class pays the most taxes" is accurate or not.

[Royd 0]

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Class envy? FU#$ U class envy. I have all the class I need. It's about fairness and a shared prosperity. Class envy is some fucked up right wing term they coined to make themselves feel superior somehow.

That's funny. Statistically, I'm not even considered middle class, and I recognize it for what it is. It's all about punishing those who have more of whatever than you do, regardless of how they achieved their level of prosperity.
Some people won't be happy until Bill Gates is dumpster diving.

[billvon 3,120]

> It's all about punishing those who have more of whatever than you do.

No, it's simpler than that. It's about paying your debts. Want to pay less in the way of taxes? Spend less in the way of wars, social security, medicare, highways, air traffic control and NASA.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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If you have $1 and I take a dime, it hurts a lot more than if you have $100 and I take $25.

It depends what you need to do with the rest of the money.

I had more left over when I had $2400 in taxable income from my summer job as a life guard living with my parents than when I got my first "real" job making $24,000 a year from which I had to pay for rent, insurance, food, etc.

In expensive states the salaries don't compensate for the increased costs of living. Buying a house some place expensive like California can run $40,000 more a year in mortgage + property taxes than some place more modestly priced. You could make twice what some one did someplace more affordable and still have less left over.

[Royd 0]

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True dat. But if the middle class begins to disappear, then it's a problem.

Hopefully, when that happens, we'll have two groups of people. Americans and illegal aliens.

[Royd 0]

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If you have $1 and I take a dime, it hurts a lot more than if you have $100 and I take $25.

I thought that one of the favorite liberal catch phrases is "Giving back." You wouldn't want anyone not to experience that joy, now, would you?

[Royd 0]

It's all about punishing those who have more of whatever than you do.

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No, it's simpler than that. It's about paying your debts. Want to pay less in the way of taxes? Spend less in the way of wars, social security, medicare, highways, air traffic control and NASA.

I'm sure that homeless people across this great land of opportunity, who haven't paid a dime in taxes, are sitting under their bridges and in their doorways, wringing their hands and having deep discussions about national debt.
They probably are pissed that the price of Majik Markers has gone up 20% in the last few months.

[billvon 3,120]

>I'm sure that homeless people across this great land of opportunity,
>who haven't paid a dime in taxes, are sitting under their bridges and in
>their doorways, wringing their hands and having deep discussions about
>national debt.

As I am sure that the chickenhawks are sitting safely at home, safe in their knowledge that someone else will pay for their war, and that someone else's son will die for it. Entitlement - the latest GOP value.

[Amazon 7]

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Does hard work help? Of course. But yes, the increasingly obscene wealth of some of the rich probably does indicate some deeper problems.

Well it sounds a lot like King George II.... Born on third base.. and has alwasy felt he got there by hitting a triple.

[georgerussia 0]

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Buying a house some place expensive like California can run $40,000 more a year in mortgage + property taxes than some place more modestly priced.

For $40K/year in mortgage - that's actually very cheap place for California.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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WASHINGTON, Jan. 7 — Families earning more than $1 million a year saw their federal tax rates drop more sharply than any group in the country as a result of President Bush’s tax cuts, according to a new Congressional study.

Just found it stored in my "good_text" directory, the author is unknown:


This is a simple way to understand the tax laws. Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand - suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men — the poorest — would pay nothing;
The fifth would pay $1
The sixth would pay $3
The seventh $7
The eighth $12
The ninth $18
and the tenth man — the richest — would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement — until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal.

So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were 52 DOLLARS short of paying the bill.

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

Where would that leave the rest?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[freethefly 6]

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I'm sure that homeless people across this great land of opportunity, who haven't paid a dime in taxes, are sitting under their bridges and in their doorways

When I read things like this it always reminds me of the Bob Dylan song that says it so well...

Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

You never turned around to see the frowns on the jugglers and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to ride on the chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain't it hard when you discover that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

Princess on the steeple and all the pretty people
They're drinkin', thinkin' that they got it made
Exchanging all kinds of precious gifts and things
But you'd better lift your diamond ring, you'd better pawn it babe
You used to be so amused
At Napoleon in rags and the language that he used
Go to him now, he calls you, you can't refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
You're invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

The truth is, no one is immune to the fall that so many find themselves in. It's easy to sit in your house and laugh at those who have lost it all. Call them what you wish. It's sad when you are so beyond yourself that you cannot imagine yourself in their place. I'm sure some of them thought much like you do before they found out otherwise.
As of right now, citizens in Springfield, Mo. are gathering petitions to close down a homeless shelter for homeless Iraq veterans. The shelter is ran by Rev. Larry Rice, a great human. Rev. Rice is not a money grubber. He does not live in a mansion. He wears no gold nor have a multi-million dollar church. Every dime he collects he gives away. The city of Springfield has done everything it can to run him and the homeless vets out of town. People in the area say that they feel bad for them but, they don't want these guys in their town The Assemblies of God and the Bapitist have refused them help. Their only help is coming from Larry Rice. Sad that someone who claims to be a "christian" would post constantly to put the homeless down. But, considering what has been going on around this part of the bible belt it is really no surprise. Talk all godly but spit on those who need help the most. Not very christian like now is it?

If you are unaware of Larry Rice;
http://www.newlifeevangelisticcenter.org/immeasurablymore.htm

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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I just happen to think that the country would be in MUCH better shape if the poor were getting richer just a bit faster than the rich were getting richer.

So, I'm presuming that you're donating part of your take-home pay in support of them, then.... sharing your prosperity and all that.

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When you have a fat bank account, a $2 raise don't mean shit. When you have nothing, $2 is everything.

So your solution is to tax down the ones that would pay out that $2, so now they don't have it *to* pay out... brilliant!!

Just because a company COULD pay their emplyees a better wage and give them health benefits doesn't mean they WILL. Those at the top like their fat paychecks and will protect their own interests.

When taxes on the rich went down, did the wages of the low level workers increase? According to you, they should have increased, since the corporations and big shots had more money in their pockets.

NO.

Wages for workers have gone DOWN as salaries at the top have gone UP.

You're confusing rich people with corporations, again. Not all that surprising, actually.

Review the function of business and effect of taxation on business profit. Bring a precis to class, tomorrow.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Royd 0]

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The truth is, no one is immune to the fall that so many find themselves in. It's easy to sit in your house and laugh at those who have lost it all. Call them what you wish. It's sad when you are so beyond yourself that you cannot imagine yourself in their place. I'm sure some of them thought much like you do before they found out otherwise.
As of right now, citizens in Springfield, Mo. are gathering petitions to close down a homeless shelter for homeless Iraq veterans. The shelter is ran by Rev. Larry Rice, a great human. Rev. Rice is not a money grubber. He does not live in a mansion. He wears no gold nor have a multi-million dollar church. Every dime he collects he gives away. The city of Springfield has done everything it can to run him and the homeless vets out of town. People in the area say that they feel bad for them but, they don't want these guys in their town The Assemblies of God and the Bapitist have refused them help. Their only help is coming from Larry Rice. Sad that someone who claims to be a "christian" would post constantly to put the homeless down. But, considering what has been going on around this part of the bible belt it is really no surprise. Talk all godly but spit on those who need help the most. Not very christian like now is it?

The only difference between me and a homeless person is that I have a home. My sig line isn't a fluke.
The fact is that there is plenty of land and buildings for homeless people to take advantage if only they'd start thinking outside of the cardboard box. I could take $10 worth of seeds, go out on a ditch bank, or a clearing in the woods, plant them, and have enough food to last for a long time.
Many, not all, of them have become victims inside their own heads.
I recently tried an experiment. It tells me something about unintended consequences.
I did a big job last spring. I finished puttting a house together that a contractor dropped the ball on.
In June, when I was done, I had a pocket full of money, and since I didn't want Uncle Sam getting any deeper into my pocket, I decided to sit on my ass until I actually had to go back to work.
The longer I sat, the more complacent, indifferent, and depressed I became.
I needed to get back to work, but now,I was too depressed to do more than get out of bed, drink coffee and sit here doing stuff like this.
There are a lot of people that you could give them every possible tool that they needed to get on their feet, and make their own way in life, but they think that, somehow, they are owed a free life upon this earth. Most have some lame excuse why they don't think it's their responsibility to care for themselves.

[Coreece 190]

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What will you do with YOUR economic stimulus money?

Pay my taxes....

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[georgerussia 0]

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The truth is, no one is immune to the fall that so many find themselves in. It's easy to sit in your house and laugh at those who have lost it all.

Sure. If I stop working and paying my rent, I'll be homeless in a couple of weeks. For most of us it takes hard work to be able to "sit in your house and laugh". You have to work and pay for this privilege, and you have to pay nothing to be homeless.

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Call them what you wish. It's sad when you are so beyond yourself that you cannot imagine yourself in their place. I'm sure some of them thought much like you do before they found out otherwise.

As I said above, it's very easy to become homeless. Everyone in this world could do it. Going down is much easier than going up.

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As of right now, citizens in Springfield, Mo. are gathering petitions to close down a homeless shelter for homeless Iraq veterans.

For "lowering property value", right?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[nanook 1]

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WASHINGTON, Jan. 7 — Families earning more than $1 million a year saw their federal tax rates drop more sharply than any group in the country as a result of President Bush’s tax cuts, according to a new Congressional study.

Just found it stored in my "good_text" directory, the author is unknown:


This is a simple way to understand the tax laws. Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand - suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men — the poorest — would pay nothing;
The fifth would pay $1
The sixth would pay $3
The seventh $7
The eighth $12
The ninth $18
and the tenth man — the richest — would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement — until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal.

So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were 52 DOLLARS short of paying the bill.

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

Where would that leave the rest?

They got mad because they did very faulty math. first, they started with a percentage of the original 100%. Then they took 20% off. Instead of using the same percentages to reflect how much each would pay after the cut, they divied up the 20% cut equally and messed up the math. (unless the punchline is that you can misuse math intentionally to fool people into anger)

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[georgerussia 0]

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They got mad because they did very faulty math. first, they started with a percentage of the original 100%. Then they took 20% off. Instead of using the same percentages to reflect how much each would pay after the cut, they divied up the 20% cut equally and messed up the math. (unless the punchline is that you can misuse math intentionally to fool people into anger)

It was a good example to address the "tax cuts only benefit rich" point. For some people it seems to be hard to understand that if you pay $500 in taxes, the 1% tax cut will save you only $5, but if you paid $500K in taxes, the tax cut would save you much more.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[nanook 1]

It is a good example. I just got a little anal-retentive there.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[azdiver 0]

an economist/professor told that to rush limbaugh as a way of explaining tax cuts and combat the tax cuts for the rich argument. If im recalling correctly it was a democrat economist.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak