FDA Approves Cloned Meat

[lawrocket 3]

I don't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with anything that is an exact duplicate of another thing.

I don't see lab grown ribeyes anytime soon. But I do see some cows that grow nice ribeyes being cloned to make a lot more cows with nice ribeyes.

Let's say there is a cow that is genetically immune to mycobacterium bovis. This immunity may come from a recessive genotype that would take decades to breed a large stock of immune cows.

Or, we can keep on cloning this animal to have a large stock of immune cows within a decade. In doing so, we also lower the incidence of human tuberculosis.

Think of it this way - if we could clone chickens and other birds that are resistant to H5N1, that otherwise were just the same, we could avert possible pandemic within ten or twenty years.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I don't have a problem with anything that is an exact duplicate of another thing.

Quoted for posterity.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[lawrocket 3]

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I don't have a problem with anything that is an exact duplicate of another thing.

Quoted for posterity.

Okay. Qualify that with eating something that I would have eaten, anyway.

Was your comment somehow prurient?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Was your comment somehow prurient?

In your dreams, PAL!

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I don't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with anything that is an exact duplicate of another thing.

ok, so how do you establish this as true?

[lawrocket 3]

Come on. What guy hasn't dreamed of twins?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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I don't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with anything that is an exact duplicate of another thing.

ok, so how do you establish this as true?

Because when the only basis for objection is that you have been told that these are exactly alike, doesn't that say something?

"The defect in this steak is, the cow was in an onion patch."
"Correct."
"YES!!! The defect in this steak is that it is cloned from the same cow as steak #2."
"Correct. How could you tell"
"I could tell because it didn't have any defects, GAWSHH."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Because when the only basis for objection is that you have been told that these are exactly alike, doesn't that say something?

That's not been the only basis for objection.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Because when the only basis for objection is that you have been told that these are exactly alike, doesn't that say something?

It does, indeed! In some cases, it says one appreciates originality. I know I do! Nothing I have in life matches, yet everything goes wonderfully together.

I like it that way.

It's like a puzzle. Two exact pieces don't fit together.

Though it should be noted now, I'm rather off topic and having too much fun to hop back on.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[lawrocket 3]

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Because when the only basis for objection is that you have been told that these are exactly alike, doesn't that say something?

That's not been the only basis for objection.

I agree. There are MANY bases for objections. However, the key objection mentioned here is that it is a way to make more money.

The dangers of cloning can be best seen in things such as the Irish Potato Famine. But, I think that private industry would make variations in their product to satisfy the consumers and ensure diversity.

Of cours,e I have been wrong.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I agree. There are MANY bases for objections. However, the key objection mentioned here is that it is a way to make more money.

I think it is a fair objection. When profit is the primary goal, there is the concern that long term thinking/safety is tossed aside. You can be more confident that the UC Davis team has more of those in mind than Monsato. (well, you used to, now that biotech is funding research at the universities it's much less true)

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The dangers of cloning can be best seen in things such as the Irish Potato Famine. But, I think that private industry would make variations in their product to satisfy the consumers and ensure diversity.

Back to the apples - they are identically bland now, just like farmed salmon.

And virtually all apple juice gets pasturized now rather. (sorry, really a separate rant)

[billvon 3,120]

>Let's say there is a cow that is genetically immune to mycobacterium
>bovis. This immunity may come from a recessive genotype that would
>take decades to breed a large stock of immune cows.

>Or, we can keep on cloning this animal to have a large stock of immune
>cows within a decade. In doing so, we also lower the incidence of human
>tuberculosis.

Then we get to the "law of unintended consequences."

Let's say you have these great cows that get fat fast, don't get m. bovis, have a good disposition, breed well etc. So we start cloning them for either breeding stock or meat animals. Within a few generations most cattle are either identical genetically or very, very similar to each other.

Then a disease comes along that exploits a strength (now a weakness) in the cow's genome. Call it BSE2. Most cows die; there is no "other genome" that confers any resistance to this new disease. For two years no one can raise much in the way of cattle, until someone either switches to a different line of cattle or thaws out some alternative ova that we (hopefully) saved.

That's one of the dangers with a homogeneous genetic population - no diversity to resist changes in the pathologic environment. It's also one of the reasons that gene banks are important, so we can "go back" to earlier strains of livestock/food crops.

[lawrocket 3]

Bill - as I posted above:

"The dangers of cloning can be best seen in things such as the Irish Potato Famine. But, I think that private industry would make variations in their product to satisfy the consumers and ensure diversity. "

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PLFXpert 0]

"Private Potato, what is you stance on the issue?"

"Well, Gene it's all gravy to me!"

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[lawrocket 3]

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Back to the apples - they are identically bland now, just like farmed salmon.

True. Because there is a profit motive. Consumers demand apples that are of good quality. They don't want to risk getting a great apple or a shitty apple.

It's why I eat Fuji Apples or Galas pretty much exclusively. The Fuji has the best texture (in my mind) and the Gala the best flavor. Do me a favor and mix the two, clone them, and then grow them and sell them.

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And virtually all apple juice gets pasturized now rather. (sorry, really a separate rant)

Possibly because of the huge breakout of e. coli from odwalla apple juice in 1996. Odwalla learned its lesson and started using flash pasteurization.

So, find a way to keep the juices free of e.coli or other varmints and you can have fresh apple juice.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

>But, I think that private industry would make variations in their product
> to satisfy the consumers and ensure diversity.

I think that private industry tends towards satisfying their shareholders i.e. maximizing profit and minimizing costs. They will tend to compete for the largest market share - the people who want cheap burgers. Traditionally the "alternative" market for meat has been very small.

I would also argue they have zero incentive to ensure diversity. Barring catastrophe, diversity costs money.

[lawrocket 3]

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diversity costs money.

Diversity makes money, too. It's why Ford isn't the only car on the block. It's why there are different manufacturers for containers and canopies - each offerign something a little different from the next.

So you want your beef nice and lean. There will be companies who would give lean cows. Me? I like at least 20% fat on my beef. There will be companies that do that, too.

Folks will try to make money by differentiating.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PLFXpert 0]

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It's why I eat Fuji Apples or Galas pretty much exclusively.

You're missing out. Pink Lady's RULE!

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Possibly because of the huge breakout of e. coli from odwalla apple juice in 1996. Odwalla learned its lesson and started using flash pasteurization.

the outbreak wasn't as huge as the response.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Bill - as I posted above:

"The dangers of cloning can be best seen in things such as the Irish Potato Famine. But, I think that private industry would make variations in their product to satisfy the consumers and ensure diversity. "

history shows otherwise. You already listed the potato. Grape vines nearly suffered a similar fate in Europe. Private industry will not do anything to ensure diversity. Their commercial interests could accidentally result in such a result.

[BIGUN 1,488]

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For now, I'm going to have to say, "No, thank you."

Conclusions from Allergenicity and Feeding Studies in Rodents

The second prong of this risk assessment is based on the hypothesis that edible products from healthy cloned animals and their progeny are as safe to eat as edible products from conventionally produced livestock. CVM reviewed three studies in which the rat was used as a surrogate animal model to investigate possible biological effects of eating meat or milk from cattle clones. One of these feeding studies was conducted over an extended period (14 weeks) and included standard toxicological endpoints as well as a functional observational (behavior) battery. None of these studies demonstrated any change in the physiology or pathology of the rat following consumption of meat or milk from clones. Moreover, no evidence has been found to indicate that the allergenic potential of meat or milk from cloned cattle is greater than that of meat or milk from non-cloned cattle. No behavioral changes were observed. These findings are consistent with our conclusions using the Compositional Analysis approach, i.e., that meat and milk from clones and their progeny are not materially different from meat and milk derived from conventional counterparts and thus do not pose any additional food consumption risks relative to food from conventional animals.

Source: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/CloningRA_ChapterVI_Final.htm

E. Weight of Evidence Evaluations

As is the case for all risk assessments, the amount of data and information available on endpoints varied in quantity, with respect to both number of studies and number of data points available to evaluate. In some cases, evaluation of one endpoint indicated different outcomes in different laboratories. This Risk Assessment took such differences into account by applying the criteria listed above to consider the overall weight of evidence— that is, the extent to which the data supported each other, and where they did not, to provide a framework for determining the underlying basis for the differences. Because the weight of evidence considers all of the information in one framework, it does not require any particular number of studies on any particular endpoint in order to be valid; rather, by considering all of the information together, it is able to develop a coherent perspective that takes into account biological assumptions, mechanisms, and empirical evidence. It also allows for the identification of uncertainties, and provides a science-based path for further investigations to resolve those uncertainties.

The judgment that cattle, swine, and goat clones meeting the same federal and state requirements as conventionally bred food animals would not likely pose food consumption risks, of course, contains some residual uncertainty. The source(s) of the uncertainty may be sorted into three categories:

Uncertainties associated with empirical observations. Uncertainties are lowest for those individual clones whose health has been thoroughly evaluated and, by inference, other clones produced using the same methodology. The uncertainties associated with the evaluation of empirical observations can be a function of the size, consistency, and quality of the data being evaluated. For example, the degree of confidence that can be placed in judgments arising from a well-conducted, consistent, and extensive dataset is much higher than from a small, poorly designed, and highly variable datasets. Further, because datasets tend to arise from an individual laboratory or producer, the uncertainties associated with that producer and method are lower than for other laboratories or producers for which less information is available.

Uncertainty stemming from biological sources can be minimized by the evaluation of the clones themselves. The most important factor in this evaluation is the healthy survival and functionality of individual clones, indicating that either the animal has minimal epigenetic dysregulation, or that any initial epigenetic dysregulation has been resolved. Uncertainty would be the lowest for individual clones demonstrating successful reproduction.

Uncertainties stemming from technological or methodological grounds encompass the degree to which judgments regarding clones arising from technologies in use when this risk assessment was conducted can be applied to modifications of the technology. These may only be resolved by the evaluation of the outcomes of those technological changes (i.e., the actual clones).

Source: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/CloningRA_ChapterVII_Final.htm

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Amazon 7]

OMG.. the sky is falling.. its the end of the world.. everyone dive into your survival bunkers

[billvon 3,120]

>Diversity makes money, too.

In agriculture, I don't think so. Monocultures are by far the rule rather than the exception. No one is going to pay extra for a different strain of corn used to make the high fructose corn syrup in their Cheetos, and I doubt they will pay more for an identically-tasting hamburger. Even if the package says "Different than most meats! We're diverse!" (Indeed, such a warning might _reduce_ sales!)

>It's why there are different manufacturers for containers and canopies -
>each offerign something a little different from the next.

Right. And there will still be a choice between Doritos and Cheetos, in the economy sized bag or the small bag. You'll probably even be able to get diet Cheetos at some point. But I doubt you'll get a choice on what sort of corn it's made of.

>It's why there are different manufacturers for containers and canopies -
>each offerign something a little different from the next.

Would you pay $10 more for a rig if its nylon were made with Nigerian oil instead of Venezuelan oil? Does anyone who buys a rig even think about that? Or would you choose based on fit, workmanship, price, support, canopy size, harness type etc?

>So you want your beef nice and lean. There will be companies who would
>give lean cows. Me? I like at least 20% fat on my beef. There will be
>companies that do that, too.

Right. And if you could get that 20% fat beef in a package that costs $2.99 a pound, or a package that costs $3.39 a pound (identical taste, packaging etc) which one would you get? And if the more expensive package said "Different than most other ground beef!" would that encourage you to get it?

[masterblaster72 0]

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I don't know if buying cheaper food is considered "stupid." Many people call it "capitalism."

Buying cheaper food that is of the same price and same quality, to me, is capitalism.

Buying cheaper food that is of potentially questionable, potentially pathological quality for the same price: I call that stupidity...gullibility...malleability on the part of the consumer.

As far as trusting private corporations to take on the task of ensuring genetic diversity -- a task that has been under the control of nature for millions of years -- no thank you. I'd rather nature continue to take care of that part for me. I don't have such trust in private industry.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[PLFXpert 0]

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OMG.. the sky is falling

What comment are you responding to?

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.