Stop Shoving Christianity Down My Throat

[jakee 1,595]

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But earlier in this thread it was claimed animals have morals???

We can observe, in groups of social animals, some types of altruistic or 'moral' behaviour that does not bring any direct benefit to the altruistic animal or its immediate family. This pretty much brings down the 'Only god can make people moral' argument.

It doesn't mean that animals can be considered in the same light as consenting adults any more than it means you are a hedgehog.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

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But earlier in this thread it was claimed animals have morals???

We can observe, in groups of social animals, some types of altruistic or 'moral' behaviour that does not bring any direct benefit to the altruistic animal or its immediate family. This pretty much brings down the 'Only god can make people moral' argument.

It doesn't mean that animals can be considered in the same light as consenting adults any more than it means you are a hedgehog.

Well then, debate over.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,595]

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Well then, debate over.

Well this very, very small part of it, yes...

Unless you want to argue that altruistic behaviour has never been observed in social animals, or that animals can be realistically be compared to consenting adults, or that you are in fact a hedgehog.

But I don't think you'll do that, because there is actually nothing in my post you could possibly say was wrong.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

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Well then, debate over.

Well this very, very small part of it, yes...

Unless you want to argue that altruistic behaviour has never been observed in social animals, or that animals can be realistically be compared to consenting adults, or that you are in fact a hedgehog.

But I don't think you'll do that, because there is actually nothing in my post you could possibly say was wrong.

You know, I am glad you feel this way. If you feel you nailed it then fine. Animals have morals.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,116]

>Let's say you are going for a walk with your children, pass an empty lot,
>and see some man screwing a dog. You would probably rush your children
>off and call the police.

Correct. And if I saw people burning a cross on a black man's lawn, I'd do the same.

Now, they weren't harming anyone. Over a period of time, after many people see the same thing, they might just learn to live with it. Some might even find it fun. After all, the group wearing white sheets seemed to like doing it.

The next thing you know, people are buying lumber and gasoline. Then a small group of right wingers gets together and starts calling people who object "christian haters." Other religious conservatives who don't want to be seen in a bad light by the outspoken Christians jump on board and start demanding the right to wear sheets, burn crosses and hang nooses in public. They declare there's a "war on christianity" and a "war on christmas" and they have the right to defend themselves.

Pretty soon, conservatives are pushing for a "protection of Kristians" law.

I could go on, but the bottom line is that religion isn't the standard of right and wrong. Indeed, sometimes the things done in the name of religion are just plain evil.

[Royd 0]

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You know, I am glad you feel this way. If you feel you nailed then fine. Animals have morals.....

if they did have morals, they wouldn't change them for the sake of convenience.

[jakee 1,595]

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You know, I am glad you feel this way. If you feel you nailed then fine. Animals have morals.....

So did you not understand what I wrote, or are you just playing dumb?

I said that some social animals have been seen to exhibit altruistic or seemingly 'moral' behaviour for reasons other than gaining a direct benefit. You can't argue against that, 'cos it's true.

If you want to make the argument that this means animals can be considered moral or immoral then be my guest. Me, I don't think those lables are in any way appropriate.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,116]

>If you feel you nailed it then fine. Animals have morals.....

Higher animals have the same basic instincts, drives and desire to do good (and bad) that we do. They show altruism, selflessness, compassion, courage and love. They also show anger, greed, hate and bigotry. They thus have an inherent morality, although they do not document it anywhere.

[chinagirl 0]

Makes me wonder....why are dogs considered a man's best friend if we can't trust these "animals" to have certain "moral" traits of loyalty and protection toward the owner?

Do any of you have pets?

~Built for Abuse
www.skydivethefarm.com

[Lindsey 0]

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Makes me wonder....why are dogs considered a man's best friend if we can't trust these "animals" to have certain "moral" traits of loyalty and protection toward the owner?

Do any of you have pets?

They do, don't they? Does that speak to some evolutionary selection for certain "moral" traits??? Or have the dogs gone and got religion???

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[billvon 3,116]

>why are dogs considered a man's best friend if we can't trust
>these "animals" to have certain "moral" traits of loyalty and protection
>toward the owner?

As you well know, many people (including owners and children of owners) are killed by dogs every year - so trusting your dog 100% can be a mistake.

Nevertheless, they are pack animals (gray wolves, basically.) They have an inherent desire to be part of a pack or (in our case) a human family. Dogs have been bred over the years to be loyal, obedient, friendly, docile etc and thus most dogs kept as pets are considered loyal.

Needless to say, dogs bred to fight sometimes do not have those characteristics.

>Do any of you have pets?

Four dogs over the years.

[Lindsey 0]

As you well know, many people (including owners and children of owners) are killed by dogs every year - so trusting your dog 100% can be a mistake.

as can trusting people....even the ones you think you can, well, trust.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[warpedskydiver 0]

I can trust my dog, I trust that he will dismember someone for intruding in my home or threatening a family member.

[Lindsey 0]

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I can trust my dog, I trust that he will dismember someone for intruding in my home or threatening a family member.

I can trust mine, too, to bark at an intruder until he steps on her. Scruinch....

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[chinagirl 0]

So if animals can be taught to have "moralistic values", why is it so far fetching for some people to grasp that humans have been taught the same? Why do some insist that human moral standards are dictated by religion?

Personally, I don't care for pets...but I admire those that have the patience and love to raise animals like they would their own children. Kudos to you!!

~Built for Abuse
www.skydivethefarm.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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They do, don't they? Does that speak to some evolutionary selection for certain "moral" traits??? Or have the dogs gone and got religion???

I would argue that in the long run evolutionary fitness and morality are interchangeable.

[Lindsey 0]

You wouldn't be arguing with ME. Me and you on da SAME PAGE then.

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[freethefly 6]

All hail God or is that Dog or is that Tac...

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[maadmax 0]

---Makes me wonder....why are dogs considered a man's best friend if we can't trust these "animals" to have certain "moral" traits of loyalty and protection toward the owner?

In my observation of the human/animal bond, dogs are only man's best friend when they assume a submissive acceptance to the humans alpha position.
When they don't they are usually euthanized. Animals appear to be free from our dilemma of worrying about right from wrong. They constantly live in the moment and for them might usually makes right.

_____________________________________________

---Do any of you have any pets?

10 dogs, 7 cats, parrots, snakes, fish, other assorted reptiles (most all rescues)

[rushmc 23]

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>If you feel you nailed it then fine. Animals have morals.....

Higher animals have the same basic instincts, drives and desire to do good (and bad) that we do. They show altruism, selflessness, compassion, courage and love. They also show anger, greed, hate and bigotry. They thus have an inherent morality, although they do not document it anywhere.

Well, there it is then. Debate over

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>If you feel you nailed it then fine. Animals have morals.....

Higher animals have the same basic instincts, drives and desire to do good (and bad) that we do. They show altruism, selflessness, compassion, courage and love. They also show anger, greed, hate and bigotry. They thus have an inherent morality, although they do not document it anywhere.

Hey, how about your prove this scientificaly?


Since ,............. well, ...............you know, ................oh hell forget it......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Casurf1978 0]

Look at orcas, dolphins, elephants, apes and chimps to name a few. There is more than ample scientific proof there. All you need to do is open your mind.

[billvon 3,116]

>Well, there it is then. Debate over

OK.

>how about your prove this scientificaly?

I thought the debate was over!

But in any case:

I assume you have been around animals enough to actually see them displaying anger towards an intruder, showing courage when a smaller dog faces down a larger dog, and showing love towards their pups/cubs/kits etc. If not, spend some time around animals and it will be self evident.

Some examples of altruism and compassion in animals:

Dogs will often adopt orphaned cats, squirrels, ducks and even tiger cubs.

Dolphins will support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe.

Wolves will bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill.

Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, when asked, share their food with others of the group. In captivity, they will warn other chimpanzees if a handler comes with a tranquilizer gun intended for another chimpanzee, even if they know it is not intended for them, and even if they know they will be punished for it.

Vampire bats have a "buddy system" in which a bat who has had a successful night of feeding will regurgitate blood for its less fortunate companion.

In several bird species, a breeding pair receives help in raising its young from other "helper" birds, who protect the nest from predators and help to feed the fledglings.

Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.

Walruses adopt orphans who lost their parents to predators.

Some examples of hatred and bigotry:

Alpha-male wolves who come across other males in the wild will drive them off and/or kill them.

When a new silverback takes over a gorilla tribe, often he will first kill all the existing offspring of the female gorillas, then repopulate the tribe with his own offspring.

Some research into altruism:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060404201741.htm

Most animal handlers have long understood the similarity in emotions and morals between man and the higher animals - dolphins, gorillas, chimpanzees. However, we're now starting to see this even in lower animals:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20080105/bob11.asp

[freethefly 6]

I have proof that the God Tac exist! I was in town earlier today to get some shots of the Lawrence County courthouse when out of nowhere Tac decended upon the old courthouse. Carnage soon was upon the souless lawyers who quickly, with briefcases in hand, scurried like rats from the building as Tac mercilessly and with great accuracy impaled each, like pork on a shish-ka-bob spear, upon his gleaming, razor like claws. He then proceeded to play with them, batting them about the square before eating them and then taking a nap. Afterwards, Tac, hacked up a hairball full of lawyers and then marked his territory by urinating on the courthouse. He then ascended back into the heavens and a delightful purring could be heard across the county. One witness was quoted to saying "I never really cared to much for the damn things and have always considered 'accidently' backing my truck up over the wifes cat. I guess now, I'll have to rethink my whole concept of who really is charge". A local catholic priest has stated that they knew all along, hence, CATholics and that they will now be giving catnip at communion. ALL HAIL TAC!

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[juanesky 0]

Well, since that kitty is a ghost, then someone killed it, the question is WHO MASTURBATED TODAY?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon