"Guns take pride of place in US family values."

[1969912 0]

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That, without shadow of doubt, is newsworthy information. In very basic terms you could ask, where shootings are being carried out by young teenagers; is it because they're becoming more twisted or evil than another nations children? Or is it through having easier access to weapons? But then, what about the many other nations where weapons are easily accessible, who don't they have such a high frequency of shootings? And does that then bring us back to the statistics to find an answer?

Either way, you can't completely blame the media for any 'moral panic', or for the attention these incidents attract.

Are you talking about any shootings by young teens, or just mass school shootings by teens? For now, I'll assume you're talking about mass school shootings like the one at Columbine HS. Below is a list of all school shootings by teens from 1966 on. To differentiate "spree shootings", I have done the following: In cases where the killer targeted a specific person(s), I have added "Not Random" after the entry. If unsure of specific targeting "Random?" is added.

Cleveland Elementary School (2) 1979 ("I don't like mondays". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Don%27t_Like_Mondays_%28song%29. Music video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POl4vFp-5os)

Parkway South Junior High School (2) 1983 Not Random

Lindhurst High School (3) 1993

East Carter High School (2) 1993 Random?

Richland High School (2) 1995 Random?

Frontier Junior High (3) 1996

Bethel High School (2) 1997 Random?

Pearl High School (6) 1997

Heath High School (3) 1997

Jonesboro school (5) 1998

Parker Middle School (1) 1998

Thurston High School (2) 1998 Random?

Columbine High School (15) 1999

Heritage High School (0) 1999

Buell Elementary School (1) 2000 6 yo perp

Santana High School (2) 2001

Granite Hills High School (1, the perp) 2001

Red Lion Area Junior High School (2) 2003 Random?

Rocori High School (2) 2003 Not Random

Red Lake High School (7) 2005

Campbell County High School (1) 2005 Not Random

Pine Middle School shooting (0) 2006

Weston High School shooting (1) 2006 Random?

SuccessTech Academy 2007 (1, the perp)
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Based on the information above, it doesn't look like that type of shooting is increasing in frequency. The 10 year gap between 1983 ad 1993 with no shootings stands out, as does the lack of shootings prior to 1979. I don't know anything about the years prior to 1966.


In 1968 there were two gun control laws enacted (OCCSSA and GCA), in 1986 there was one (FOPA), one in 1993 (Brady), and one in 1994 ("Assault Weapons" Ban (the stupid bastards)). I don't think any of those laws had any real impact on rate of purchase. All I know is that gun ownership rose every year.

All I can say about the number of crazy kids is that it likely increased as the population increased.


What do you think about the numbers? Do you see any patterns that might be significant?

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I wasn't trying to place all blame on the media, since I don't know how many reports were sloppy and/or dishonest. Any murder of an innocent person is deserving of attention.

Opinions?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[warpedskydiver 0]

[vortexring 0]

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Despite the spiralling rise in the daily number of shootings in the US...

I didn't even get past the very first sentence, above, before I spotted a lie.

The latest annual FBI crime report shows violence is down. And over the last 15 years, it has spiraled down to a 30-year low.

The story is so full of lies it's ridiculous. But no lie is too great for the gun-o-phobes.

You really should arm yourself with the facts, rather than the anti-gun hype, in order to make the proper judgements.

Eh? Why did I post the article asking for peoples opinion?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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You really should arm yourself with the facts, rather than the anti-gun hype, in order to make the proper judgements.

I understand your point, but vortexring seems to really be interested in looking at this objectively, and has been posting rational and thoughtful responses to comments about the article. We may never agree (that's not my goal), but at least there's thoughtful and polite dialog going on.

Cheers - couldn't agree with you more!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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The latest annual FBI crime report shows violence is down. And over the last 15 years, it has spiraled down to a 30-year low.

Must be the restrictions on guns finally taking effect

[rushmc 23]

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The latest annual FBI crime report shows violence is down. And over the last 15 years, it has spiraled down to a 30-year low.

Must be the restrictions on guns finally taking effect

Actually, restrictions in many places have been lessened

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Actually, restrictions in many places have been lessened

Less restrictions now than 30 years ago?

[vortexring 0]

I was generally referring to all the shootings committed by teens.

It's too common-place to explain it through increasing population.

The possible factors behind the individual motivation - well, isn't there some debating material here!? Like most areas of abnormal psychology, it's limitless.

But gun accessibility is a key area.

As is the popular culture surrounding them.

We all know what cruel fuckers kids can be. We all know the emotional instabilty of young adults. Christ - can you remember pressure as a kid? Mental trauma? Most people can - and they might also remember overcoming these problems in one way or another. But obviously some don't.

Add accessibility and the so called popular culture and there you go.

And that's barely scratching at the surface...

It's all happening far too often - it's a major issue! How could it not be?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[lawrocket 3]

You forgot ANOTHER Cleveland Elementary School shooting. THis one in Stockton in January, 1989. In that one, a lunatic aremed with an AK-47 shot up Cleveland Elementary School, killing five kids before killing himself.

It was this incident that sparked the laws against "assault weapons."

Edited: Dangers in January seem to go with the name "Cleveland High School" in California.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[vortexring 0]

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The latest annual FBI crime report shows violence is down. And over the last 15 years, it has spiraled down to a 30-year low.

Must be the restrictions on guns finally taking effect

Could do with a few more it seems....

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rushmc 23]

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Actually, restrictions in many places have been lessened

Less restrictions now than 30 years ago?

No, but many states have loosened CCW laws. Kansas, Nebraska, SD Texas and Florida.

So, your point is taken but in the last few years many more have been allowed to carry.

The SC decision coming this year may make CCW availble to even more but, I am not holding my breath. I think many are right when they say the ruling will be very narrow and of little effect.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

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I was generally referring to all the shootings committed by teens.

It's too common-place to explain it through increasing population.

The possible factors behind the individual motivation - well, isn't there some debating material here!? Like most areas of abnormal psychology, it's limitless.

But gun accessibility is a key area.

schools used to have shooting clubs, and kids had guns in their vehicles. Now you can get expelled for having things that merely look like guns.

[1969912 0]

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You forgot ANOTHER Cleveland Elementary School shooting. THis one in Stockton in January, 1989.

Didn't forget. My post was in response to a comment about young teen shooters, so I didn't include several school shootings that were committed by adults. That is clearly stated in my post. Patrick Purdy, the Stockton murderer, was much older.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

Ok, we'll look at overall gun murder by teens (I know you said "shootings", but homicide data is easier to find), and not just school shootings this time.

Take a look at the attached graph to see gun murders broken down by age of killers since 1975. The graph is from here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm. Click on the graph on the web page to see actual data. Gun murders by teens have NOT been increasing in the last 15 or so years, they've been DECREASING. You need to look at the data and then see if you can come up with anything that might be driving the murder rates. The big jump between the mid 80's and mid 90's is entirely the result of young (below ~24) Blacks killing each other. The Dept. of Justice says that Gangs/Crack Cocaine were behind it, and I agree (what made it drop back down, though?).

Also look at US gun laws since 1934 here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_United_States, and see if any of the laws might be driving any increase/decrease. People under age 18 (under 21 for handguns) have not been able to buy guns since 1968.

I didn't blame anything on increasing population. In reply to your comment about psycho kids and their prevalance, I said that all I can assume is that their prevalence increased in relation to population increase. Please read what I write more carefully.

I can't be the only one who is willing to look beyond the newspaper and provide real numbers. Dig up the data to support whatever you think. If the numbers aren't there, condider changing your mind.

You keep talking about "accessbility". Would you please define the term and very precisely explain what you're talking about? Also look at (your definition of) accessibility and its relation to teen murders over a long period of time. If accessibility has an influence on the rate of teen murders, then show me how/why.

By "It's all happening far too often - it's a major issue! How could it not be?", what are you talking about? Crip/Blood punk-ass bitches shooting each other in the hood, or kids shooting up a school? Be specific. If you mean school shootings, then yes, it's happening far too often. Once is too often. Is it a major issue? I still say no. And it's certainly much less of an issue to me than the other ways kids die young.

Edit: Graph pic now attached....

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[vortexring 0]

Thanks for the links - that made for some interesting and surprising reading.

I actually feel a bit of fraud as I haven't quite the time I'd like to research the stats - especially as this is where I'd need it to support my points. And also because there often seems to be some discrepancies with various sources of information people are providing in this area. It'd be good to then collate all the info. and see the overall picture and trends for myself.

But as I've mentioned previously, the effort you've went to, to provide this info. is appreciated.

So for now, I'll have to wait until I get home, and the kids are at school, and Mrs Vortexring has popped out to do some shopping, before I can dedicate some time to looking into this.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[mnealtx 0]

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The latest annual FBI crime report shows violence is down. And over the last 15 years, it has spiraled down to a 30-year low.

Must be the restrictions on guns finally taking effect

Could do with a few more it seems....

Why not, it's working SO well for DC, now isn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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The big jump between the mid 80's and mid 90's is entirely the result of young (below ~24) Blacks killing each other. The Dept. of Justice says that Gangs/Crack Cocaine were behind it, and I agree (what made it drop back down, though?).

Drug task forces and more effective policing have helped in that regard, I believe.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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So for now, I'll have to wait until I get home, and the kids are at school, and Mrs Vortexring has popped out to do some shopping, before I can dedicate some time to looking into this.

Thank YOU for being willing to take an honest look at the situation and to take into account what we've been saying all along - it's appreciated.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[vortexring 0]

You're more than welcome.

But I reckon the stuff I'll be posting in a few weeks or so will have you doing backflips....

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rushmc 23]

Thank YOU for being willing to take an honest look at the situation and to take into account what we've been saying all along - it's appreciated.

[mnealtx 0]

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You're more than welcome.

But I reckon the stuff I'll be posting in a few weeks or so will have you doing backflips....

We'll see - you're still not going to be able to prove that guns are CAUSING crime, you know. It still takes a criminal to do that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[vortexring 0]

I should hope not too - seeing as I've never said guns are causing crime.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[kelpdiver 2]

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But I reckon the stuff I'll be posting in a few weeks or so will have you doing backflips....

oh, you're going to finally give us the ultimate solution for campus security?

[mnealtx 0]

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I should hope not too - seeing as I've never said guns are causing crime.

Yes, you have - you keep referring to the 'gun problem' when what it *IS* is a crime problem.

And every time you do it, I'm going to ask for proof that it was the guns that caused the crime...because that's what you're inferring.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706