jakee 1,596 #26 January 15, 2008 QuoteFreedom must not be compromised! Great soundbite, but realistically useless. What freedom should never be compromised? The freedom of each individual? The freedom of each individual must be compromised, otherwise there would be no law and no society. You might say that the freedom of society itself must not be compromised - but how do you quantify the greatest possible freedom of society and the balancing point between freedom of the individual and freedom of society?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #27 January 15, 2008 To quote Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, "My freedom to move my fist must be limited by the proximity of your chin." Freedom is not the same as anarchy. Have you read this book? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #28 January 15, 2008 QuoteTo quote Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, "My freedom to move my fist must be limited by the proximity of your chin." Freedom is not the same as anarchy. Exactly my point. The individual freedom of Mr Douglas is compromised by the need for greater freedom in society as a whole (the freedom not to get knocked on your arse every 10 seconds). Therefore "Freedom must never be compromised" is merely a soundbite, and useless to apply to the real world. Some freedoms need to be compromised to ensure greater overall freedom, and not everyone will agree on which compromises which need to be made.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #29 January 15, 2008 >Freedom must not be compromised! It always is. You are not free to run over someone in your car, even if you prefer to not look where you are going. You are not free to have sex with an unwilling participant, even if you are horny. You are not free to eat the other guy's sandwich, even if you are hungry. Those are all limitations on your freedom. They are necessary to ensure OTHER people's freedoms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #30 January 15, 2008 You are missing the point. Freedom is the individual's right to his/her life. Anarchy is where people do whatever they want. Freedom does not give you the right to infringe the rights of others. Government has a role in a free society to protect these rights, but the scope of the government must be limited and power dispersed. Compromise your freedom and everyone loses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #31 January 15, 2008 QuoteYou are missing the point. I'm really not. QuoteFreedom does not give you the right to infringe the rights of others. Only if you redefine "Freedom". QuoteCompromise your freedom and everyone loses. You've already admitted that what you call freedom is not the freedom to do whatever you want. That is a compromise. Any system that can be implemented will contain compromises that you like and compromises that you don't like. Above all though, it will contain compromises.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #32 January 15, 2008 With freedom comes responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #33 January 15, 2008 QuoteWith freedom comes responsibility. If you're forced to be responsible in order to be free... well, I don't have to point out the contradiction there, do I?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #34 January 15, 2008 QuoteQuoteWith freedom comes responsibility. If you're forced to be responsible in order to be free... well, I don't have to point out the contradiction there, do I? No contradiction there at all. You have the freedom to do whatever you want...but you are also responsible for the consequences of those actions. Personal responsibility, not community responsibility.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #35 January 15, 2008 QuoteNo contradiction there at all. You have the freedom to do whatever you want...but you are also responsible for the consequences of those actions. And if there's a body holding you responsible for the consequences you're still not truly free. The core point holds, freedom is compromised in any functional society.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #36 January 15, 2008 > You have the freedom to do whatever you want...but you are also > responsible for the consequences of those actions. Again, you don't. You do not have the right to drive drunk, even if you claim that you will hold yourself responsible for the consequences of those actions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #37 January 15, 2008 Quote> You have the freedom to do whatever you want...but you are also > responsible for the consequences of those actions. Again, you don't. You do not have the right to drive drunk, even if you claim that you will hold yourself responsible for the consequences of those actions. Bit of a weak argument, Bill. We're not discussing rights in this instance.... people are perfectly free to drive drunk. Yes, it's illegal - that's the consequence if you do it - the possibility of arrest/imprisonment. Unfortunately, the personal responsibility to accept the CONSEQUENCES of your actions seems to be woefully out-of-fashion nowadays. It's always someone else's fault.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #38 January 15, 2008 >We're not discussing rights in this instance.... people are perfectly free to drive drunk. At a more philosophical level, I agree. On a practical level, the government (i.e. the police) will actively try to stop you if you try. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #39 January 15, 2008 Quote>We're not discussing rights in this instance.... people are perfectly free to drive drunk. At a more philosophical level, I agree. On a practical level, the government (i.e. the police) will actively try to stop you if you try. Agreed - one of the consequences of taking that action.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #40 January 16, 2008 I read unkown ideal a few years back, just finished Atlas Shrugged this summer. The first 300 pages of the latter sure are tough to stay awake for but on the whole it is really interested material. Too bad modern politics has proved her thesis to be correct.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #41 January 16, 2008 QuoteFreedom must not be compromised! This isn't the University anymore. You cannot fix a complex problem with a simple phrase-worthy answer. It's time to put all those college theories to practice and discard those ideas that at best merit an emotional response. Ayn Rand definitely did not believe in "free lunches." A lot of her stories prescribe a utopia of sorts. Those type of bubbles cannot exist without an outside enabler. The Amish require a developed society surrounding them to allow them to exist. The homeless street corner begger needs a major society to be able to exist. I don't think he will do well in djoubuti. (i'm not saying the Amish are a bad idea). Hippies need to be able to have rights of their land in New Mexico to have thier communes. Those rights do not pop out of nowhere. They all may need to work a little in their own utopia to keep it up, but the one thing they all have in common is that they are allowed to be there. Their utopia is fed by outside forces. She never acknowledges (or understands) this. Utopias cannot exist as a naked singularity. That is as "free lunch" as you can get._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #42 January 16, 2008 Rand does have some good points, but she makes the heads of industry seem to be all honest & hard-working & smart compared to the evil, parasitic, socialist government & its lackies. When in fact many corporation leaders will gladly use government aggression as a tool to unfairly prop up their corporations or eliminate competition etc. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #43 January 16, 2008 >>The Amish require a developed society surrounding them to allow them to exist. Beg pardon? How do you figure that?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #44 January 16, 2008 Quote>>The Amish require a developed society surrounding them to allow them to exist. Beg pardon? How do you figure that? How long d'ya think the meek and mild would last in, say, Sierra Leone? Without a developed society tolerating their existence someone with less compunction about picking up an AK-47 will come along and steal their stuff.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #45 January 16, 2008 QuoteQuote>>The Amish require a developed society surrounding them to allow them to exist. Beg pardon? How do you figure that? How long d'ya think the meek and mild would last in, say, Sierra Leone? Without a developed society tolerating their existence someone with less compunction about picking up an AK-47 will come along and steal their stuff. Ah, ok... I understand your point, now. Thanks.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #46 January 16, 2008 Their 19th century way of life doesn't allow for appropriate arament as a protection of thier borders and way of life. Even a third world country would be able to flatten them. Or, coerce them against their ideals. What he said. (damn slow fingers!)_____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
