National Academy of Sciences takes a stand

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

All I want is some level of control of how what is taught to my kids.

No, you seem to want absolutewhere did I say or imply this?? I know you got to say this kind of crap shit to keep your agrument going but please control over what is taught to your kids. Not some.It appears to me what you say I want is exactly what you want!! After all, YOU are defining what YOU think my kids should be taught now arent you!!! I never said or implied that any thing should not be taught in school> boy, do you look funny now>

Not only that, but you think the default should be to keep young adultsNOW you move the debate to "Young Adults" Kind of hard to follow now dont you think? from being educated with regard to their bodies and health considerations that will certainly affect them at some point in their life.

On a side note, how many people know cath... er, just families with like 10 kids? Is that a sign that the rhythm method works? Like thats got a lot to do with this?

.jim

You are all over the board tonight. Need a break?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[n23x 0]

Quote

Don't know - can you prove how MANY of those families are using the rythym method?

That I know that have a bazillion kids?

4 that I can recall off the top of my head.

How do I know they were a result of the unsuccessful use of the rhythem method? Because most of the kids were unplanned "gifts from god". Because the parents specifically discourage the use of condoms and other contraceptive measures. Because they push the rhythm method as being the "sinless" form of family control.

Worse was listening to their adult offspring spout off the reliability of such a method. Don't forget, wasting sperm that isn't going to make a baby is against god's wishes. But boning when the woman "can't become pregnant" is ok too, somehow.

Is it ok that they parrot what has been preached to them? Sure. Do they have a much higher chance of firing out kids because they have a poor understanding of how human reproduction works (i.e sperm lifetime, modes of pregnancy, etc)? Hell yes.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Don't forget, wasting sperm that isn't going to make a baby is against god's wishes.

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/monty-python/every-sperm-is-sacred.html

[mnealtx 0]

I knew SOMEONE was going to come in with that!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

DEWD.. I had to....It was just begging to be done.

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

Do you want to talk about liberal PC correcteness damage? How about the social damage caused "tollerance" that your side preaches but does not live by? And it is because of "progressive" (I love that code word) idealogy that allowes sex to be sold to our kids on TV and the media under the gise of free speech. Oh that is one to love.

I'm sick of people wanting the government to parent for them. From sex ed to regulating the media, it's all done "for the children!" Whatever happened to being a parent, talking to your own kids about sex, and monitoring their tv and internet use?

[n23x 0]

Alright, Marc.

Hold my hand, since I obviously need to walk you through this.

You said,

Quote

All I want is some level of control of how what is taught to my kids

I said you wanted absolute control. Why would I say this? A reasonable level of control (in this case a substantial amount) would be a school giving students a permission slip to bring home for their parents to sign if they don't want their kids taking a health class. You, on the other hand, pissed and moaned that some kids might not bring home the permission slip, and the default was to educate them. You want 100% control of that situation, e.g. absolute control.

Quote

NOW you move the debate to "Young Adults" Kind of hard to follow now dont you think?

I would consider early teens to be young adults, but we can call them "kids" too. We have to think about this in absolute terms, not relative, Marc. Young adults aren't 37.

My mention of the rhythm method does have something to do with this. It has to do with the dissemination of ineffective (or even incorrect) methods of birth control and the, "you'll be alright if you do this," BS you hear in the locker rooms all the time. I was literally AMAZED at the lack of knowledge these guys (and girl) displayed.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

I'm sick of people wanting the government to parent for them. From sex ed to regulating the media, it's all done "for the children!"

Some consider basic health and 'sex' education a public health issue, in addition to being an basic education issue.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jakee 1,630]

Palin: Wait... I've got something to tell the whole family. The mill's closed. There's no more work, we're destitute.

Family: Oh no!

Palin: Oh yes. I've got no option but to sell you all for scientific experiments.

Family: No, please dad.

Palin: No no, that's the way it is my loves... Blame the Catholic church for not letting me wear one of those little rubber things... Oh they've done some wonderful things in their time, they preserved the might and majesty, even the mystery of the Church of Rome, the sanctity of the sacrament and the indivisible oneness of the Trinity, but if they'd let me wear one of the little rubber things on the end of my cock we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

Quote

I'm sick of people wanting the government to parent for them. From sex ed to regulating the media, it's all done "for the children!"

Some consider basic health and 'sex' education a public health issue, in addition to being an basic education issue.

VR/Marg

I agree. What I meant was that some people want sex-ed to reflect their values rather than just sticking to the science.

[nerdgirl 0]

In thinking about the direction that this thread has taken – health/sex education classes in American education and parental consent – I’m taking from it a reminder on the critical need to involve *all* the potentially impacted people earlier rather than later.

Yes, it takes more work … & sometimes work that one might feel ‘should not be your job.’

W/r/t health & sex education curricula, my goal are education not ignorance (nor controversy) and that extends to factual, science-based knowledge with respect to the biology of reproduction, the potential consequences, and effective countermeasures (from abstinence to condoms) -- curricula that enables young adults access to accurate, allopathic-based, evidence-based *information* to (hopefully) make good fact-based choices. Morals should come from the parents to enable them to make good moral-based choices. (Because teenagers never make short-sighted choices or act impulsively.)

I strongly suspect what I would like in a curricula is more ‘liberal’ (I would use the descriptor “comprehensive”) than what Marc and others whose views he reflects want.

In the end, for me the lesson from this thread is to get parents involved earlier. Yeah, some parents just won’t bother, some don’t have time (working multiple jobs, etc,), some expect teachers to teach morality … but if the end goal is greater education, more work to get parents to feel that they have vested interest up front is worth it.

I also wondered how different my views were from “mainstream America”: a 2003 NPR/Kaiser Foundation/Harvard School of Government poll found that 93% of Americans surveyed thought some form of sex education should be taught in schools … 15% thought abstinence only-education was appropriate, 46% percent supported ‘abstinence +’ some information on condoms & contraception, 20% thoughts schools should focus on “teaching teens to make responsible decisions about sex,” what that constitutes more specifically is discussed in the linked pdf.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 3,152]

>curricula that enables young adults access to accurate,
>allopathic-based, evidence-based *information* to (hopefully) make
>good fact-based choices.

Agreed.

>In the end, for me the lesson from this thread is to get parents involved earlier.

Also agreed. One way to perhaps make this happen is to ensure parents have access to the curriculum of each course the kid is to take. If they don't like the message taught in health, they can remove their kids and teach them themselves. If they can't be bothered, then the kid still gets the education that might prevent her from being a mother at age 14 (or worse.)

[Everon 0]

>In the end, for me the lesson from this thread is to get parents involved earlier.

I know that the lesson to be learned from the OP is to stop religious wingnuts from injecting religion (in the form of baseless, untestable and non-falsifiable crap) into the science curriculum.

That includes most parents.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Do you want to talk about liberal PC correcteness damage? How about the social damage caused "tollerance" that your side preaches but does not live by? And it is because of "progressive" (I love that code word) idealogy that allowes sex to be sold to our kids on TV and the media under the gise of free speech. Oh that is one to love.

Ditto
I'm sick of people wanting the government to parent for them. From sex ed to regulating the media, it's all done "for the children!" Whatever happened to being a parent, talking to your own kids about sex, and monitoring their tv and internet use?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Alright, Marc.

Hold my hand, no chance in hell. I have no idea whay you do with your handssince I obviously need to walk you through this.

You said,

Quote

All I want is some level of control of how what is taught to my kids

I said you wanted absolute control. Why would I say this? A reasonable level of control (in this case a substantial amount) would be a school giving students a permission slip to bring home for their parents to sign if they don't want their kids taking a health class. You, on the other hand, pissed and moaned that some kids might not bring home the permission slip, and the default was to educate them. You want 100% control of that situation, e.g. absolute control.are you serious dude??????? dam you are out there

Quote

NOW you move the debate to "Young Adults" Kind of hard to follow now dont you think?

I would consider early teens to be young adults, but we can call them "kids" too. We have to think about this in absolute terms, not relative, Marc. Young adults aren't 37. I am talking about minor children period. I would hold your hand to help you but eeewwwwwwww

My mention of the rhythm method does have something to do with this. It has to do with the dissemination of ineffective (or even incorrect) methods of birth control and the, "you'll be alright if you do this," BS you hear in the locker rooms all the time. I was literally AMAZED at the lack of knowledge these guys (and girl) displayed.

.jim

Ya and you can bring up something about going blind too if you want to use weird off topic extreems

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I'm sick of people wanting the government to parent for them. From sex ed to regulating the media, it's all done "for the children!"

Some consider basic health and 'sex' education a public health issue, in addition to being an basic education issue.

VR/Marg

I agree. What I meant was that some people want sex-ed to reflect their values rather than just sticking to the science.

Finally, some one that gets it!!! You maybe just said it better than I did. Thank You

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

In thinking about the direction that this thread has taken – health/sex education classes in American education and parental consent – I’m taking from it a reminder on the critical need to involve *all* the potentially impacted people earlier rather than later.

Yes, it takes more work … & sometimes work that one might feel ‘should not be your job.’

W/r/t health & sex education curricula, my goal are education not ignorance (nor controversy) and that extends to factual, science-based knowledge with respect to the biology of reproduction, the potential consequences, and effective countermeasures (from abstinence to condoms) -- curricula that enables young adults access to accurate, allopathic-based, evidence-based *information* to (hopefully) make good fact-based choices. Morals should come from the parents to enable them to make good moral-based choices. (Because teenagers never make short-sighted choices or act impulsively.)

I strongly suspect what I would like in a curricula is more ‘liberal’ (I would use the descriptor “comprehensive”) than what Marc and others whose views he reflects want.

In the end, for me the lesson from this thread is to get parents involved earlier. Yeah, some parents just won’t bother, some don’t have time (working multiple jobs, etc,), some expect teachers to teach morality … but if the end goal is greater education, more work to get parents to feel that they have vested interest up front is worth it.

I also wondered how different my views were from “mainstream America”: a 2003 NPR/Kaiser Foundation/Harvard School of Government poll found that 93% of Americans surveyed thought some form of sex education should be taught in schools … 15% thought abstinence only-education was appropriate, 46% percent supported ‘abstinence +’ some information on condoms & contraception, 20% thoughts schools should focus on “teaching teens to make responsible decisions about sex,” what that constitutes more specifically is discussed in the linked pdf.

VR/Marg

Nicely stated. I concur The point being the parents have the most input to the info, not the state

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>In the end, for me the lesson from this thread is to get parents involved earlier.

I know that the lesson to be learned from the OP is to stop religious wingnuts from injecting religion (in the form of baseless, untestable and non-falsifiable crap) into the science curriculum.This includes man made global warming

That includes most parents.

Like you know, wait, if you are liberal you THINK you know, sorry

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Everon 0]

Quote

Quote

>In the end, for me the lesson from this thread is to get parents involved earlier.

I know that the lesson to be learned from the OP is to stop religious wingnuts from injecting religion (in the form of baseless, untestable and non-falsifiable crap) into the science curriculum.This includes man made global warming

That includes most parents.

Like you know, wait, if you are liberal you THINK you know, sorry

I base my statements on logic and evidence. That's all. If you're presenting evidence for "god did it all" versus biological evolution, please expound forth.

Global Warming? I can't comment on that, as I am not an expert in the field.

Unfortunately there are plenty of parents teaching their children that creationism is a fact and evolutionary biology is a complete falsehood - a "religion," so to speak.

The bottom line is that any scientific branch of research is testable and falsifiable, valid statistical studies are just that - valid, etc.

Politics has nothing to do with this discussion.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

>In the end, for me the lesson from this thread is to get parents involved earlier.

I know that the lesson to be learned from the OP is to stop religious wingnuts from injecting religion (in the form of baseless, untestable and non-falsifiable crap) into the science curriculum.This includes man made global warming

That includes most parents.

Like you know, wait, if you are liberal you THINK you know, sorry

I base my statements on logic and evidence. That's all. If you're presenting evidence for "god did it all" versus biological evolution, please expound forth.I have not at any time supported or said anything like this, bad assumption on your part

Global Warming? I can't comment on that, as I am not an expert in the field.Oh, but you are an expert of the above then? Since you gave an opinion?

Unfortunately there are plenty of parents teaching their children that creationism is a fact and evolutionary biology is a complete falsehood - a "religion," so to speak.so take all parents rights away, seems logical to me

The bottom line is that any scientific branch of research is testable and falsifiable, valid statistical studies are just that - valid, etc.look at global warming, you will see this statement is false

Politics has nothing to do with this discussion.

Wrong, it has everyting to do with it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,152]

>>What I meant was that some people want sex-ed to reflect their values
>>rather than just sticking to the science.


>Finally, some one that gets it!!! You maybe just said it better than I did.

Cool, then we agree after all! Students should be taught:

-the facts on how STD's are transmitted
-the facts on how to use birth control
-the facts on pregnancy

The moral lessons of the above should be left to the parents.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I base my statements on logic and evidence. That's all. If you're presenting evidence for "god did it all" versus biological evolution, please expound forth.

Unfortunately there are plenty of parents teaching their children that creationism is a fact and evolutionary biology is a complete falsehood - a "religion," so to speak.

So, you have evidence of just how many parents make up the set of "plenty", then.... other than "all those bible-thumpers", of course.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>>What I meant was that some people want sex-ed to reflect their values
>>rather than just sticking to the science.


>Finally, some one that gets it!!! You maybe just said it better than I did.

Cool, then we agree after all! Students should be taught:

-the facts on how STD's are transmitted
-the facts on how to use birth control
-the facts on pregnancy

The moral lessons of the above should be left to the parents.

Yes, and I have never denied that. Many of you (in your gotta control modes) just assumed something I never said.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[n23x 0]

Quote

So, you have evidence of just how many parents make up the set of "plenty", then.... other than "all those bible-thumpers", of course.

Are you really going to ask that question?

Please leave your hats, coats, and logic at the door

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[n23x 0]

Quote

AS well as the moral context of the facts you list above

Maybe we could better understand you if you'd elaborate on the "moral context of the facts" above?

(Here's a polite suggestion too. Write our your thoughts. Leave it for 5 minutes. Come back, re-read/edit for clarity, and leave us a good post that we can read, understand, and then refute if we disagree)

edited to add: and then I'll make an attempt to not be snarky all the time, because fuck, am I tired of writing the same shit over and over again.

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC