Do "madmen" and criminals have a right to bear arms?

[kallend 2,184]

Spun off from another thread.

Does the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms apply to everyone in the USA, including aliens, criminals and the insane?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,132]

Nope. Any sane, law abiding adult in the US has the right to carry a gun. Commit a violent crime, or be declared unable to tell right from wrong, and you lose that right.

[mnealtx 0]

Agreed.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

I think aliens have a lot cooler weapons than guns....directed energy weapons and such...

Whack jobs and criminals.. nope.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Nope. Any sane, law abiding adult in the US has the right to carry a gun. Commit a violent crime, or be declared unable to tell right from wrong, and you lose that right.

I don't understand. I thought rights were 'inalienable;' it is beyond the scope of the government to deny or infringe upon them in any way.

[mnealtx 0]

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Nope. Any sane, law abiding adult in the US has the right to carry a gun. Commit a violent crime, or be declared unable to tell right from wrong, and you lose that right.

I don't understand. I thought rights were 'inalienable;' it is beyond the scope of the government to deny or infringe upon them in any way.

In principle, yes... in practice, no. Use your First Amendment right and yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre and see what happens to you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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In principle, yes... in practice, no. Use your First Amendment right and yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre and see what happens to you.

Shouldn't that be spelled out in the constitution then? Otherwise the powers that be could (for example) make a habit of finding ways to take large numbers of a group not aligned with the status quo and give them a criminal record. That way they could keep them from voting.

[mnealtx 0]

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In principle, yes... in practice, no. Use your First Amendment right and yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre and see what happens to you.

Shouldn't that be spelled out in the constitution then? Otherwise the powers that be could (for example) make a habit of finding ways to take large numbers of a group not aligned with the status quo and give them a criminal record. That way they could keep them from voting.

I don't disagree with you...but I think that the grand majority of laws on the books today are bullshit...so I'm probably not the best one to ask.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[akarunway 1]

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Spun off from another thread.

Does the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms apply to everyone in the USA, including aliens, criminals and the insane?

No to ILLEGAL aliens and the insane BUT, yes to certain CONVICTED criminals (minor crimes). Iv'e been convicted of a few but I don't believe in mans (or womens ) law anyway.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 3,132]

>I thought rights were 'inalienable;' it is beyond the scope of
>the government to deny or infringe upon them in any way.

The most basic rights we have - physical freedom, the right to free speech, even the right to live - can be abrogated if we commit certain crimes. Your rights end when you harm someone else through exercising them.

[jm951 0]

IIRC- certain criminals can legally own firearms, namely, those who have only committed misdemeanors and have fully satisfied the penalties levied against them. A felony conviction is an instant dq on gun ownership.

[billvon 3,132]

>A felony conviction is an instant dq on gun ownership.

Yes, there's a line there that could reasonably be drawn at felonies or violent crimes. Although I do recall a poster here gleefully describing a legal loophole that made it possible for felons to buy and own guns.

[akarunway 1]

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IIRC- certain criminals can legally own firearms, namely, those who have only committed misdemeanors and have fully satisfied the penalties levied against them. A felony conviction is an instant dq on gun ownership.

Not true. Get a pardon and have been clean for 3 yrs.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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The most basic rights we have - physical freedom, the right to free speech, even the right to live - can be abrogated if we commit certain crimes. Your rights end when you harm someone else through exercising them.

Where in the constitution does the government gain the mandate to abrogate said rights?
I don't disagree that the state must maintain the ability to restrict the actions of its citizens, but is it not a flaw in the constitution that there is no mechanism? Has this flaw not led to a general lawlessness within the government? Has this flaw not allowed the executive branch to trample over the rights the constitution is there to protect with nothing anyone can do about it except wait for the next election (a remedy that has proved futile in a large number of countries)?

[billvon 3,132]

>Where in the constitution does the government gain the mandate
>to abrogate said rights?

A few places.

Implicitly in Section 8: "The Congress shall have Power. . . To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States. . ." This implies that the government can create punishments for violations of the law.

Explicitly in Amendment 5: "nor shall any person be. . . deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

In other words, people have all their rights to life, liberty and ownership of their property UNTIL convicted via due process of law.

[kallend 2,184]

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I think aliens have a lot cooler weapons than guns....directed energy weapons and such...

Whack jobs and criminals.. nope.

OK exclude aliens (a tinfoil beanie deals with that problem)..

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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Spun off from another thread.

Does the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms apply to everyone in the USA, including aliens, criminals and the insane?

Where is "This is the dumbest poll ever" choice?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[KelliJ 0]

Depends on the "arms".
Firearms? No. Swords? No. Baseball bats? Sure. Same with knives and archery equipment. The lines can get blurred, such as where is the line between a short sword and a long knife?
The 2nd applies to much more than just guns.

[pirana 0]

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Otherwise the powers that be could (for example) make a habit of finding ways to take large numbers of a group not aligned with the status quo and give them a criminal record. That way they could keep them from voting.

Hey man; haven't you been paying attention to the last 7 years?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[lawrocket 3]

Aliens? I believe they should. Until they've done something wrong. Personally, I think that you should be able to get a gun even though you came from England.

Criminals? It depends on the crime. For a crime of moral turpitude or violence, no. These people should, however, be given some due process procedure that would allow them to be licensed to own a gun.

Insane? That also depends. If they are in treatment and do not know right from wrong, then no. If they have completed treatment and are deemed fit to return to society, then yes.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Depends on the "arms".
Firearms? No. Swords? No. Baseball bats? Sure. Same with knives and archery equipment. The lines can get blurred, such as where is the line between a short sword and a long knife?

Having flown commercially in the last week, your phrasing made me think of physical queues of people waiting to go through TSA screening and differentiation of (semi-arbitrary lines) "weapons" from acceptable carry-on luggage.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[HeadCone 0]

I voted Yes. I think that chopping off someone's arms because they are crazy is a little on the harsh side.

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[billvon 3,132]

>I think that chopping off someone's arms because they are crazy is a
>little on the harsh side.

We don't chop off the _person's_ arms, silly. We chop off the _bear's_ arms.

[HeadCone 0]

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>I think that chopping off someone's arms because they are crazy is a
>little on the harsh side.

We don't chop off the _person's_ arms, silly. We chop off the _bear's_ arms.

Ah yes. Of coarse. I misread the question. It's about whether or not they should be allowed to have bear arms. I still vote yes.

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[kallend 2,184]

19 Noes, 7 Yeses so far.

So what can be done to make it harder for madmen and criminals to get guns. "Nothing" is NOT an acceptable answer.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.