Sec of Health held religious meetings as Governor

[jakee 1,596]

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Again, you miss the point. READ. Your innate prejudice against religion is blinding you

Your inability to detect subtle distinctions is blinding you.

Your example of murder being illegal is not an example of religious philosophies being applied to government in anything like the same way as politicians meeting up to discuss how to apply tenets of a specific religion to government. Not the same at all.

Now, see if you can follow - applying good ideas to gavernment that may happen to also be a part of a religious philosophy, fine. Looking for specific tenets of a specific religion to apply to government, not so good. That subtle distinction thing there.

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Who are you or anyone else to tell anyone they can't have a discussion about any subject they desire?

This thread is about what to expect from politicians seeking/ in high office, and reasons to vote for them or not. Anything that relats to their decision making prcess is fair game.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,120]

>There is nothing wrong with applying religious concepts to government . . .

Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. Let's take two examples:

Politician 1: "My constituency wants cleaner air, so I'm going to support this anti-pollution bill. And you know, the bible points out that this world was given to us by God, so we should be taking care of it anyway."

No problem.

Politician 2: "Exodus says that gays shall be killed. Therefore, I'm going to pardon this murderer, because he killed a homosexual - and the bible says that's OK."

That's a problem.

Politician 3: "My religious sensibilities are offended by all these women who think they can walk around without covering their faces. I am instituting an emergency order to ensure they behave more modestly."

That's a problem.

[AWL71 0]

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Mike Leavitt, current Secretary of Health and Human Services in the Bush administration, and close friend/confidante of Mitt Romney was the governor of the State of Utah prior to being sworn as a Cabinet member.
His records of office are now being released, and it's been uncovered that he held early morning "seminary meetings/classes" in which he and top advisers discussed how to incorporate "just and holy" Mormon principles into his governance, archival records show.

The gatherings included his top staff and trusted advisers, including chief of staff Charlie Johnson, now chief financial officer at Health and Human Services; former U.S. Attorney David Jordan; Matthew Durrant, whom Leavitt later appointed to the Utah Supreme Court; Henry Eyring, the son of the Mormon general authority; and former Brigham Young University professor Bud Scruggs.

Over several mornings in late 1996, the group delved into the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, exploring the lessons from Mormon scripture and how they apply to modern government.

Leavitt claims he has not done this as a Cabinet member either at Health or when he was appointed to the EPA.

Leavitt as governor, hid these meetings from the public, and once they were brought to light, he's asking that the recordings of these meetings be made private and not part of the state archives.

Can anyone honestly believe that Mitt Romney's Mormonism won't play a significant role should he be elected? Does America really want as president, a man who believes in fantasy, plates of gold taken back to heaven, rocks that translate ancient writings when put in a hat, secret handshakes through curtains, and women are property, not partners?
Romney was raised in a religion shrouded in conspiracy and secrecy, that has an official doctrine of "Lying for the Lord" (it's OK to lie, cheat, steal, if God benefits). If God benefits from Romney making it to the White House, it's entirely likely Romney has been lying about several issues during the campaign process.

Good Lord DSE. We all know you despise Mormons. Your posts are entertaining though because they are filled with half truths and are always good for a laugh. What harm did these meetings do? None at all. No one was made to participate.

Even if Romney is elected, which I don't think will happen, how is he going to ruin the US with his religion? Answer that for me. I think most people have more pressing issues and concerns than the "Mormons" taking over.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[TheAnvil 0]

You're not following.

I don't think YOU or anyone else has the right to tell anyone what discussions they may have with anyone else.

You apparently disagree. That's your opinion and you're welcome to it, however indefensible that position might be in a free society.

The illegality of theft, murder, slander and many other crimes are great examples of religious philosophies that have been incorporated into legal systems for years. The existence of commonality between said philosophies and the legal system should in and of itself be evidence that discussions concerning religion and how its tenets might be incorporated into government might be a useful thing. If tenets were incorporated to an extent that it would be imposing a particular religion upon anyone, I'd disagree with it.

That's not the case here. The notion that you or anyone else or society as a whole has the right to prevent intellectual discussion on ANY topic by government officials with their coworkers, friends, or families or even strangers they might run into is absolutely absurd and indefensible by any standard - so long as one believes in free thought (which I most certainly do).

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

I'd agree with that. There are limitations to how far such can go, obviously. I don't think those limitations have even been approached in this case. I do support the power of the pardon but would be irate were it used that way. Hell - I was irate over Clinton's use of it (Marc Rich in particular) and he didn't come anywhere close to doing anything so reprehensible.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[quade 4]

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I don't think YOU or anyone else has the right to tell anyone what discussions they may have with anyone else.

Does your "boss" have the right to tell you that you can't discuss porn during working hours?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,596]

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You're not following.

You are reading more than I'm writing.

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I don't think YOU or anyone else has the right to tell anyone what discussions they may have with anyone else.

I have no idea where you got that. We're talking about reasons to vote/ not vote for someone. I'm sure you wouldn't take away the right of a person to be an uneducated alcoholic if they chose, but you probably wouldn't want to risk voting one into high office, would you?

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The illegality of theft, murder, slander and many other crimes are great examples of religious philosophies that have been incorporated into legal systems for years. The existence of commonality between said philosophies and the legal system should in and of itself be evidence that discussions concerning religion and how its tenets might be incorporated into government might be a useful thing. If tenets were incorporated to an extent that it would be imposing a particular religion upon anyone, I'd disagree with it.

Are you suggesting that those things became illegal because they are prohibited by religion? I submit to you that the idea is absurd. Look up a post I made a few weeks ago about the 10 commandments to see how many 'religious' concepts are incorporated into government. I submit to you that the massive gulf between the full set of christian laws and the full set of government laws strongly suggests that there are a lot of things wrong with trawling through religious philosophy looking for extra things to apply to government.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[TheAnvil 0]

Once again - I NEVER STATED THAT SUCH THINGS WERE MADE ILLEGAL BECAUSE THEY WERE FROM ANY RELIGION. If you think the gulf between Christian law, sharia law, or mandates of the Druze should preclude any intellectual discussion, 'tis your opinion.

Again - i don't believe it's YOUR right or the right of anyone to preclude government officials or anyone else from having a conversation on any topic.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[jakee 1,596]

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Once again - I NEVER STATED THAT SUCH THINGS WERE MADE ILLEGAL BECAUSE THEY WERE FROM ANY RELIGION. If you think the gulf between Christian law, sharia law, or mandates of the Druze should preclude any intellectual discussion, 'tis your opinion.

Then (again) why did you bring it up as a counterpoint to people trawling through one specific religion, looking for things from that specific religion that they could incorporate into government?

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Again - i don't believe it's YOUR right or the right of anyone to preclude government officials or anyone else from having a conversation on any topic.

OK, you're either not reading what I'm writing, or you don't know what the word 'vote' means. Which is it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DSE 5]

-I don't despise Mormons. All of my siblings, most of my friends are LDS. I do happen to think it's one of the most whacked out religions on the planet, but I don't despise Mormons. My disdain for Romney is based almost entirely on my personal experiences with him and his dishonesty.
I can't recall who said it best, "If Romney is as true to his religion as he is to flip-flopping, then we've got nothing to worry about."

-Where have I written a "half-truth?"

-As part of Romney's temple covenant, he swears to unquestionably obey and sustain the prophet of the church. The prophet of the church often admonishes and demands certain behaviors, such as women not having more than one ear piercing, stating from the pulpit and in the media that certain political positions are not acceptable by the leadership of the church (and by inferrence, the membership of the church) such as the ERA, or gay marriage, list ad nauseum.
At least Romney no longer has to swear to slit his throat if he doesn't obey and hold secret those covenants, including the covenant to obey every word of the prophet.

Just because no one was "forced" to participate in a meeting doesn't make the meeting appropriate.

[TheAnvil 0]

Read.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[jakee 1,596]

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Read.

Read what? You admit that the example laws you gave do not result from religion, yet somehow believe that the examples supports the policy of trawling through a specific religion looking for things that can be incorporated into government.

Furthermore I have explained incredibly clearly to you that I am saying that I would not vote for politicians who would do this - not that politicians should be banned from speaking about their religion yet you persist with this bizarre strawman.

Work on your own comprehension skills (and they need work) before bashing mine, 'kay.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?