Sec of Health held religious meetings as Governor

[DSE 5]

Mike Leavitt, current Secretary of Health and Human Services in the Bush administration, and close friend/confidante of Mitt Romney was the governor of the State of Utah prior to being sworn as a Cabinet member.
His records of office are now being released, and it's been uncovered that he held early morning "seminary meetings/classes" in which he and top advisers discussed how to incorporate "just and holy" Mormon principles into his governance, archival records show.

The gatherings included his top staff and trusted advisers, including chief of staff Charlie Johnson, now chief financial officer at Health and Human Services; former U.S. Attorney David Jordan; Matthew Durrant, whom Leavitt later appointed to the Utah Supreme Court; Henry Eyring, the son of the Mormon general authority; and former Brigham Young University professor Bud Scruggs.

Over several mornings in late 1996, the group delved into the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, exploring the lessons from Mormon scripture and how they apply to modern government.

Leavitt claims he has not done this as a Cabinet member either at Health or when he was appointed to the EPA.

Leavitt as governor, hid these meetings from the public, and once they were brought to light, he's asking that the recordings of these meetings be made private and not part of the state archives.

Can anyone honestly believe that Mitt Romney's Mormonism won't play a significant role should he be elected? Does America really want as president, a man who believes in fantasy, plates of gold taken back to heaven, rocks that translate ancient writings when put in a hat, secret handshakes through curtains, and women are property, not partners?
Romney was raised in a religion shrouded in conspiracy and secrecy, that has an official doctrine of "Lying for the Lord" (it's OK to lie, cheat, steal, if God benefits). If God benefits from Romney making it to the White House, it's entirely likely Romney has been lying about several issues during the campaign process.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Mitt Romney is full of shit.

[jakee 1,596]

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Can anyone honestly believe that Mitt Romney's Mormonism won't play a significant role should he be elected? Does America really want as president, a man who believes in fantasy, plates of gold taken back to heaven, rocks that translate ancient writings when put in a hat, secret handshakes through curtains, and women are property, not partners?

No more fantastic or absurd than pretty much any other religion. It only seems wierder because the ludicrous claims were made fairly recently when - lets face it - people really should have known better.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[TheAnvil 0]

I think you're reading what you want to into that article about Mr. Leavitt. What the hell do Mr. Leavitt's actions as Governor have to do with Mr. Romney's own proclivities? How did you reach such a conclusion? Because they happen to be of the same faith? That's balderdash - putting it quite politely. Are all Muslims terrorists? They're all of the same faith, right? Absurd!

Furthermore, what is wrong with then-governor Leavitt holding meetings with people of his faith before working hours out of the office? Hmm? What, exactly? In fact, what's your problem with the discussion of applying Mormon theological philosophy to government? Their philosophy of frugality, tithing, not drinking, and loving their families/fellow human beings are a few facets of the Mormon teachings and beliefs that could be very useful to any government. Do you have a problem with Machiavelli, Kierkegaard, Christianity, Islam, Hegel, Kant, or Sartre as well? T'would seem that ala Hegel, your own convictions have blinded you to the facts at hand.

I personally find this demonization of politicians who practice religion to be absolutely absurd. It was absurd when JFK had to calm the electorate and explain that he wouldn't be taking orders from the Pope. It's equally absurd now regarding Mr. Romney and anybody else who happens to come under attack for similar reasons. Kerry and everyone's FAVORITE driver and Spanish expert, Ted Kennedy are prominent pro-abortion Catholics. They're obviously not applying the tenets of their religion to politics. Is it OK for Democrats to believe in a religion and Republicans not to do so in your book? Absolutely ABSURD in all regards!

Your attack on Mr. Romney is utterly baseless.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,120]

> Does America really want as president, a man who believes in
> fantasy, plates of gold taken back to heaven, rocks that translate ancient
> writings when put in a hat, secret handshakes through curtains, and
> women are property, not partners?

Is that really that much different than a religion that practices ritual cannibalism, that believes that bread can actually, literally turn into flesh, and that practitioners are rewarded in the afterlife for not deviating from their church's dogma?

Personally, I don't care what a politician believes provided he can do the job he was elected to do.

[DSE 5]

A- Mitt Romney and Mike Leavitt are good ole' buddies. No secret there. Leavitt played a significant role in Romney achieving his status in the 2002 Olympics.

B-I have a problem when any faith in the USA gathers as a governor's staff, to determine how they can best infuse their faith into government roles. Particularly when they, as government staff in their official capacity, openly state that they believe that "Clinton was placed in the White House by Satan" and "God will assist Orin Hatch in his bid for the presidency." Those sorts of comments do not belong in state government meetings, paid for by citizens, recorded as part of the daily meetings of the governor, during sessions designed to frame daily activities of the governor's staff.

C-Leavitt has tried to hide the contents of these meetings, not much differently than how Hilary has hidden some of her actions during Clinton's presidency. However, Hilary doesn't have a buffer of "lying for the Lord," she just lies.
The people attending the meetings were meeting as policy makers for the state of Utah, not meeting to discuss their individual thoughts on Mormonism.

I don't care if it's Mormon, Muslim, or Mountain Dew worshipper. A caucus in a bathroom or Governors Mansion to specifically discuss how their faith may be infused into government operations is wrong.

I tie Romney to the story because Leavitt and Romney are cut from the same cloth, Leavitt has helped Romney campaign, they were tight in the Governors Conference, they're both ultra-conservatives, they're golfing buddies, and yes...they're of the same religion, attending the same temple sessions, meeting with the same high leadership in the church. I don't believe Mr. Romney can separate his devotion to the LDS faith any more than Leavitt was able to.

[TheAnvil 0]

Again - balderdash at best.

If you'd read the article you linked, you'd have found that the principles their philosophical discussions decided upon as best to apply to government were all quite secular with the possible exception of freedom to worship. They were not meeting as a staff, they were meeting before working hours at the governor's residence. No requirement to show up - it was voluntary. Staff meetings on governor's staffs aren't exactly voluntary. I see nothing wrong with such meetings. Why, pray tell, would you think the contents of private meetings should be made public?

There's nothing wrong with politicians practicing their religion using its philosophy to make decisions. "Thou shalt not kill" - Christian philosophy. Anyone have a problem with the government making murder illegal?

It's when politicians attempt to impose a particular religion upon others that it becomes an issue. Your attack on Messrs. Romney and Leavitt is absurd.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Butters 0]

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There's nothing wrong with politicians practicing their religion using its philosophy to make decisions.

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It's when politicians attempt to impose a particular religion upon others that it becomes an issue.

When a politician makes a decision based on their religion they are imposing their particular religion upon others.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jakee 1,596]

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There's nothing wrong with politicians practicing their religion using its philosophy to make decisions. "Thou shalt not kill" - Christian philosophy. Anyone have a problem with the government making murder illegal?

Utter balls. Complete and utter unadulterated balls. No-one ever made murder illegal because the bible says it's wrong - it would be idiotic to suggest such a thing. Murder is illegal because it is demonstrably wrong and extremely harmful to society as a whole - that is the criteria that should be used to determine what behaviour should be permissable or not. Using religion to determine what is or is not permissable is quite simply a substitute for actual thought.

I have no problem with politicians who are religious. I have a major problem with any politician who wants to use their religion to decide what is or is not moral and what should or should not be permissable.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SpeedRacer 1]

so what specific problems would their be if romney became prez?

How exactly would being a Mormon change things in a way that could affect you or me?

(note, I'm not gonna vote for him myself, but it's not because he's a mormon).

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Amazon 7]

I get the feeling we have a lot of the followers here who beleive that a theocracy is a good thing. It would not surprise me at all that cerrtain posters think that the harrassment of underclassmen at the military academies, who did not go to church services on Sunday mornings was well deserved.

Evangelicals and any others who believe that involvement of their churces in government is a good thing may not like to actually LIVE in the wet dream religious world that they seem to support.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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so what specific problems would their be if romney became prez?

How exactly would being a Mormon change things in a way that could affect you or me?

(note, I'm not gonna vote for him myself, but it's not because he's a mormon).

They could force us all to get the same haircut, or likewise send one mormon to every houshold in america, and then they would drink all our beer.

If they sent two mormons, they would pour all our beer down the sink.

[Gawain 0]

When people start making the same big deal about Senator Harry Reid, I'll start talking about it.

In fact, when people start throwing their hands up in talking about all the idiosyncrasies of every candidate's religion, I'll bite.

However, this selective sh*t is annoying me. People were really worried about President Kennedy be a Catholic. Gov. Richardson of NM is Catholic...no one's said a word.

No one raised an eye-brow when Senator Lieberman ran or was on the VP ticket, or about his CATHOLIC ticket header: Senator Kerry.

The CEO of Marriott is a Mormon too. A handful of Congressmen from California too. The actor Matthew Modine. Steve Young. Sen. Gordon Smith (R-OR). John Browning...

I could easily point out a hundred notable names in politics, business and "society-at-large".

I can point out several points about Gov. Romney that I don't like, therefore do not support him on, and prefer he is not the Republican nominee...and none of it has anything to do with his religion.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[livendive 8]

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When people start making the same big deal about Senator Harry Reid, I'll start talking about it.

How about Senator Barack Obama?

Every one of the candidates espouses a belief in some form of Santa Claus, regardless of whether they call him Kris Kringle or Saint Nick. I'm not going to get too worked up over which is their favorite Christmas special on TV.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[DSE 5]

I did read the article(s), I did watch the news report, I did speak with a friend in the AG's office. The former AG was on the news saying this is "troubling".
The meetings were recorded on the citizen's dime, not the private dime of the governor himself. Why would "personal, religious" meetings have been recorded in the first place?

No, they weren't meeting at the Governor's residence. Leavitt wasn't living in the mansion at the time, just as Huntsman is not living there now. it is a state-owned building, that was under renovation at the time, and only select rooms were useable. As only some rooms at the State Capital were useable, due to it being under its first earthquake renovations as well (by coincidence, today it just reopened after the second renovation).

Cut it as you will, they discussed state business in context with religion in a meeting of the governors staff.
Considering that Leavitt and Romney are interchangeable...

Until Bush, we've not had an outspoken "God put me in the White House" president in my lifetime. While I'd never vote for Huckabee, I also don't think he'd be a "God put me here" guy. Romney will. He believes he's part of the Mormon prophecy, just as his dad did, just as Leavitt believed Orin Hatch was.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I can point out several points about Gov. Romney that I don't like, therefore do not support him on, and prefer he is not the Republican nominee...and none of it has anything to do with his religion.

I agree.

I think it's silly, however, to think one's religious beliefs do not play a role sometimes in the decisions they make as congressmen/women. But, while I believe religious beliefs should not be completely overlooked when deciding on a candidate, for me it really would only come in to play if there were two candidates I couldn't decide between & one believed as I did and the other believed in something weird.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[TheAnvil 0]

LMFAO. I never suggested muder was made illegal under any legal system for religious purposes. Murder is illegal and its a fundamental commandment of Christianity. Christian philosophy applied to government. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Not at the governor's residence...so the article you linked is innacurate, eh? Or did you indeed read it?

I fully support he right of elected officials to hold meetings of any sort with anyone and to make the meeting minutes or recordings available to the public or keep them private. I think the salient question would be why don't YOU? Is privacy a problem for you? Or is it freedom of speech or thought that's an issue for you?

Face it - your post is little more than an attempt to attack Romney using the innate bigotry and prejudice of those harboring resentment against those who practice religion of any sort or those who practice the Mormon religion. Sans merit - utterly.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,120]

>Murder is illegal and its a fundamental commandment of Christianity.

Well, not quite. The exact quote (per the KJV) is:

Exodus 20:1 and 20:13 - "And God spake all these words, saying. . . Thou shalt not kill."

No exceptions.

In Islam, there is a similar prohibition, but with a few exceptions for the worst criminals. Sounds like we hew more closely to Islam than to Christianity there.

Koran 5:32: "For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."

[quade 4]

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Murder is illegal and its a fundamental commandment of Christianity. Christian philosophy applied to government. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

Really? I could have sworn that the Decalogue came from Exodus 20:2–17, generally considered to have been written well before the time of Jesus and generally considered to be one of the more Jewish sections of the book.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TheAnvil 0]

The Pentateuch is common to both Judaism and Christianity.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[mnealtx 0]

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>Murder is illegal and its a fundamental commandment of Christianity.

Well, not quite. The exact quote (per the KJV) is:

Exodus 20:1 and 20:13 - "And God spake all these words, saying. . . Thou shalt not kill."

No exceptions.

In Islam, there is a similar prohibition, but with a few exceptions for the worst criminals. Sounds like we hew more closely to Islam than to Christianity there.

Koran 5:32: "For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."

Actually, the ancient Hebrew *DOES* reference murder, and not killing.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jakee 1,596]

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LMFAO. I never suggested muder was made illegal under any legal system for religious purposes. Murder is illegal and its a fundamental commandment of Christianity. Christian philosophy applied to government. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

Again... that's complete balls.

That murder is illegal is not an example of Christian philosophy being applied to government. Not in any way, shape or form. It just isn't. No-one ever sat down and said "Hmm, I wonder what Christian philosophy to apply to our legal system, Oh I know! Lets do the Thou shalt not kill thing." Never happened.

Murder being illegal simply a (rare) example of common sense being applied to both government and religion. This may seem like a trivial distinction but is in fact an important one. Why? Because you brought the example up as a counter to DSE's post about politicians holding think tanks on how to apply specific religious concepts to government. The two scenarios are completely different.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,120]

>Actually, the ancient Hebrew *DOES* reference murder . . . .

No argument there. But most of the writers of the constitution, and most of the readers of this forum, use the KJV or a similar translation rather than the hebrew (or greek, or aramaic) source material.

[TheAnvil 0]

Again, you miss the point. READ. Your innate prejudice against religion is blinding you.

There is nothing wrong with applying religious concepts to government and in many regards it's a good thing, as religious philosophies have a lot to offer. It's when specific religions are imposed upon others - which is not the case in DSE's example - that it's reprehensible.

Who are you or anyone else to tell anyone they can't have a discussion about any subject they desire?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!