The president signs new energy bill

[rushmc 23]

Show me in this thread where I have thrown in non facts and "nut case" responses. Or do you just need to insult me?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>>I do not understand why you have to do this

what, what am I doing, you mean ranting like a freeking nut bar and mixing in some facts?? isn't that what we do here?

I guess, since you must insult and lie about my responses I should consider you a "lose nut" liberal that does not like having your positions challenged.

I guess I now understand from where you come

I do not expect a response so you will not embarrass youself further

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Misternatural 0]

>I should consider you a "lose nut" liberal that does not like having your positions challenged.

OK, time out, obviously you're having a bad day, I was actually joking about myself,I need to use the emoticons more- what, you don't think some of these discussions are funny? man, some of the material that is typed on this site is a downright riot. I mean can't I just be proud of what the Govt. has done today? my fucking tax dollars are doing something I actually give a shit about. it's amazing.

>

and yes I am a loose nut but not so liberal thankyou.

Keep up the good work.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[rushmc 23]

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>I should consider you a "lose nut" liberal that does not like having your positions challenged.

OK, time out, obviously you're having a bad day, I was actually joking about myself,I need to use the emoticons more- what, you don't think some of these discussions are funny? man, some of the material that is typed on this site is a downright riot. I mean can't I just be proud of what the Govt. has done today? my fucking tax dollars are doing something I actually give a shit about. it's amazing.

>

and yes I am a loose nut but not so liberal thankyou.

Keep up the good work.

Alright, if you are being truthful (and I will acept that you are) I misread your post and I am sorry.

I see this everyday as do many in my industry and here in Iowa. Again, I am all for alternative energies. I do have some heart burn when the gov thinks it has to mandate it but that is another thread.

I too like the tax dollars doing good. In this case we may disagree but I can accept and understand your position

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

what, what am I doing, you mean ranting like a freeking nut bar and mixing in some facts?? isn't that what we do here?

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This does seem very clear however but.......

OK, now, after your reply I can see where MAYBE you meant something different than what I saw in it.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Misternatural 0]

No need for apologies here, it's the speakers corner- we are here to spar. it's good for the noggin. What industry are you in thats got you fired up about this bill?

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Misternatural 0]

Ah, you are in the electrical utility industry, I can see where that would be a burden, but consider that once the new infrastructure is in place the strain on your company should diminish, as far as the land issue, real estate prices will always be controlled by those who drive the price up by demand, for now the sub prime disaster and housing start decline should keep land prices low for the next few years.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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>And with this, at least in the short term, food prices will go up and
>food reserves (are already) go down.

So we lessen our dependence on foreign oil and lose a few pounds in the process. High fructose corn syrup getting more expensive? Twinkies getting harder to come by? Sounds like a win/win situation.

Bill, that's fine as long as you don't give a shit about the rest of the world. There were tortilla riots in Mexico last year when the price of corn began really rising; food production, paticularly carbo-hydrate staples, is a world market and they are all substitutes for one another. If we decide that using food, or food substitutes, or land that used to be used for food, for our transportation needs, then we need to be honest to ourselves and admit that people are in fact going to starve to death as a result of this decision. Maybe not in the US, but somewhere.

[billvon 3,120]

>Bill, that's fine as long as you don't give a shit about the rest of the world.

Actually, I do give a shit about the rest of the world.

>There were tortilla riots in Mexico last year when the price of corn began
>really rising; food production, paticularly carbo-hydrate staples, is a world
>market and they are all substitutes for one another.

Yes, that will be true to some extent until cellulosic ethanol takes over from corn.

Fortunately we grow a LOT of corn in this country, and a lot of it goes into nonessential foods, foods in general we'd be better off without. Indeed, the type of corn used for ethanol is most closely related to the type of corn used for high fructose corn syrup - not the type used for cornmeal.

> If we decide that using food, or food substitutes, or land that used to be
> used for food, for our transportation needs, then we need to be honest to
>ourselves and admit that people are in fact going to starve to death as
>a result of this decision.

Or perhaps we could "give a shit about the rest of the world" and perhaps not take the boat to the lake one weekend a month if it means saving the lives of 300 kids in a village somewhere.

Perhaps we could even "give a shit about the rest of the world" and use the corn we used to use to make Twinkie and Dr. Pepper sweetener and use it to make fuel instead. We'd lose some weight as a nation, have more fuel to use, and still not starve those kids.

Or not. Up to you.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Or perhaps we could "give a shit about the rest of the world" and perhaps not take the boat to the lake one weekend a month if it means saving the lives of 300 kids in a village somewhere.

Perhaps we could even "give a shit about the rest of the world" and use the corn we used to use to make Twinkie and Dr. Pepper sweetener and use it to make fuel instead. We'd lose some weight as a nation, have more fuel to use, and still not starve those kids.

Your obfuscating and you know it. The twinkies will still be on the shelf long after the price of staples forces significant "exit from the market" elsewhere.

[lawrocket 3]

The corn boom is, itself, creating some ecological havoc. I am speaking of the "dead zone" in the gulf of Mexico.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071217/ap_on_bi_ge/corn_dead_zone_5

EVERYTHING is gonna be a give and take.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

No, I do not believe he is obfuscating. He is, in fact, stating some truths and showing a middle ground.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

>The twinkies will still be on the shelf long after the price of staples
>forces significant "exit from the market" elsewhere.

And the corn tortillas will still be on the shelf, too.

The world is shrinking; almost anything we do affects someone else. Go to corn based ethanol? Corn prices go up, HFCS price goes up. People might starve.

Switch to cellulosic ethanol? Corn prices come down, but fertilizer prices go up (less waste to compost.) Water becomes more scarce in general as places grow more biomass to ferment. Food overall becomes more expensive; people might starve.

Do neither and just keep burning oil? CO2 keeps going up as rapidly as it is now and causes droughts in some places. People might starve.

There are no easy answers. Ethanol is one of many possible answers. It is surely not the only answer, and it will surely not solve all our problems. But right now we don't have many others when it comes to vehicular fuels. Corn based ethanol will be a stopgap solution until we get cellulosic ethanol on line; CS ethanol will then be a part of our fuel balance until we can make a more dramatic change (like PHEV's or pure EV's.) At that point demand drops until we can supply all our needs via domestic oil plus CS ethanol and other biofuels (like biodiesel.)

It will be nice, though, to be making decisions about balancing our food, energy and sweetener needs ourselves, instead of letting OPEC make our fuel decisions for us. It doesn't mean they will be easy decisions, but at least we will be able to make them.

[jumpinfarmer 0]

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>And with this, at least in the short term, food prices will go up and
>food reserves (are already) go down.

So we lessen our dependence on foreign oil and lose a few pounds in the process. High fructose corn syrup getting more expensive? Twinkies getting harder to come by? Sounds like a win/win situation.

Bill, that's fine as long as you don't give a shit about the rest of the world. There were tortilla riots in Mexico last year when the price of corn began really rising; food production, paticularly carbo-hydrate staples, is a world market and they are all substitutes for one another. If we decide that using food, or food substitutes, or land that used to be used for food, for our transportation needs, then we need to be honest to ourselves and admit that people are in fact going to starve to death as a result of this decision. Maybe not in the US, but somewhere.

I haven't seen anyone complaining when land that used to grow crops being converted to non farm uses, housing, comercial, parks, landfills, exc. Hundreds of thousands of acres have been lost to development and no one gave a shit about weather we could feed fuel or cloth ourselves and the rest of the world.

On another front if food, corn, wheat, beans what ever it may be had been going up in price with everything else over the years no one would think much of it now. It is for this reason ethanol even came about in the first place. Farmers growing corn were sick of getting the same prices that were paid in the 1940's and created a new industry to try and increase demand. Now people such as yourself want farmers to feal bad because they are making money on there investment of time and capital.

The rise in your grocery bill is for many reasons and corn price is only a very smaall part of it. The reason it gets all the attention is it's an easy target for the media.

[Richards 0]

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The members of the 101st Airborne Keyboard Detachment are having no problem sending our young off to foreign lands as long as they can sound all patriotic and macho from behind their keyboards.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[rushmc 23]

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Ah, you are in the electrical utility industry, I can see where that would be a burden, but consider that once the new infrastructure is in place the strain on your company should diminish, as far as the land issue, real estate prices will always be controlled by those who drive the price up by demand, for now the sub prime disaster and housing start decline should keep land prices low for the next few years.

Not a burden but a boon for us to be sure. But things have changed in the last year. Before we were building gas and electric lines to suppy these big plants but now I have seen at least 2 cancele after construction started. The money for these plants is not coming as easy anymore. (and I know that can be for different reasons)

As for land prices? Think again. Iowa State University just came out with the stats for the year. Up 20% with higher prices forecasted.

As bean and corn prices rise (and corn is at or near all time highs as are beans) land prices follow. The housing industry has no effect on crop land here.

Food industries (beef, poultry and hog) have hired lobbyests and are in a battle to stop ethanol and biodiesel subsidies. As prices rise to feed these animals food prices rise too. It is already happening

Now, I am not really wound up by this energy bill. But we all must realize every decision has its consequences. I wonder if we really know what those are going to be.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gawain 0]

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>Bill, that's fine as long as you don't give a shit about the rest of the world.

Actually, I do give a shit about the rest of the world.

No doubt that you. However, the US feeds nearly half the world to one degree or another.

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Yes, that will be true to some extent until cellulosic ethanol takes over from corn.

Fortunately we grow a LOT of corn in this country, and a lot of it goes into nonessential foods, foods in general we'd be better off without. Indeed, the type of corn used for ethanol is most closely related to the type of corn used for high fructose corn syrup - not the type used for cornmeal.

Bill, all that extra tonnage of corn grown this year will not stave off the increase in the commodity cost. Most of the corn grown (from what I could actually see) was for animal feed. US production of ethanol hits new records every year, but the supply is not increasing quite to what you may believe.

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Or perhaps we could "give a shit about the rest of the world" and perhaps not take the boat to the lake one weekend a month if it means saving the lives of 300 kids in a village somewhere.

You have a point, you know all those dropzone Twin Otters and Caravans are perfect workhorses to deliver all that aid we recoup from savings of not boating. We'll just give up everything...

This country has set the standard by being able to lead in relief to those less fortunate while not seriously rationing life at home. Be real. Over the past 30 years, but especially the last 15 years, Congress has shown no foresight in anything it has done (I might make an exception for the "contract with America", but not right now).

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Perhaps we could even "give a shit about the rest of the world" and use the corn we used to use to make Twinkie and Dr. Pepper sweetener and use it to make fuel instead. We'd lose some weight as a nation, have more fuel to use, and still not starve those kids.

Or not. Up to you.

...and we'll just put those that lost jobs at Coca-Cola, Pepsico, et al on welfare? Can you really look at the impact of what you say?

Coca-Cola, $24B, 71,000 jobs
Pepsico, $35B, 170,000 jobs
Cadbury Schweppes, $15B, 67,000 jobs

So, eliminating those products eliminates $75B out of the economy in payroll alone, 300,000 jobs directly.

Indirectly, the top two US bottling companies, Coca-Cola Enterprises, CCBCC, account for another $25B and 80,000 jobs.

That reduces more indirect retail sales at hundreds of thousands 7-eleven/gas-station/rest stops/restaurants, which will in turn burn who knows how many minimum wage/after school/working-college jobs.

I haven't even tried to project the global impact.

But hey, we-give-a-shit about the rest of the world right?

It is because we have lost focus on ourselves, by paying too much attention to the views of others, that we are now short-changing our own futures. We cannot lead in this world if we do not lead at home. There is no "sudden-psychic-change" like stop producing soda, solution. You can infuse the mentality, but the reality will not see the light of day for decades. This energy bill accomplishes neither.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Misternatural 0]

Rush
I discovered another side benefit to this bill which I think would interest you folks in the electrical utility business, The prospect of further development of electrical generation at the point of use. For example photovoltaics and on site electrical generators such as fuel cells.
Wouldn't that reduce the strain on an already over worked power line grid system?

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[idrankwhat 0]

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It confirms who controls congress. Big Oil.

With a 600% increase in ethanol production it's not just "big oil".

Big Ag. That's a double dip isn't it? Didn't they reap the farm bill last week?

[idrankwhat 0]

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It confirms who controls congress. Big Oil.

With a 600% increase in ethanol production it's not just "big oil".

And with this, at least in the short term, food prices will go up and food reserves (are already) go down

...and the workers south of the border will be even less competitive than they were (didn't think that was possible) and guess what that means to you immigration issue voters?
Don't get me wrong, I like ethanol as an alternative fuel but I'd rather we make it from the corn that goes to create high fructose corn syrup and keep it out of our food. We'd be better off fiscally as well as physically.

[mnealtx 0]

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It confirms who controls congress. Big Oil.

With a 600% increase in ethanol production it's not just "big oil".

And with this, at least in the short term, food prices will go up and food reserves (are already) go down

...and the workers south of the border will be even less competitive than they were (didn't think that was possible) and guess what that means to you immigration issue voters?
Don't get me wrong, I like ethanol as an alternative fuel but I'd rather we make it from the corn that goes to create high fructose corn syrup and keep it out of our food. We'd be better off fiscally as well as physically.

As a generality, I agree with your statement about HFCS / ethanol. I don't think it's as easy a decision as that, however...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Misternatural 0]

>>you know all those dropzone Twin Otters and Caravans are perfect workhorses to deliver all that aid we recoup from savings of not boating. We'll just give up everything...


Turbine plane engines can be modified to burn plant derived fuels and the FAA has approved diesel engines for piston aircraft which incidentally can burn biodiesel so fuel related jump ticket prices could actually not be so affected by rising petroleum prices.
this we like, yes?


Is the bill a Panacea? hell no, but it's a step in the direction of an energy revolution and all of these projected disastrous consequences which MIGHT result from the temporary use of food crops for fuel are nothing more than a fear based resistance to inevitable change.

It's difficult to let go of an oil based infrastructure, our lives are bound to it right now but lets face it- the switch to a new energy based society is inevitable.
The bill is now law...lets see where it takes us. If the projected economic problems become a evident- I have faith that amendments to the law can be made in time to avert disaster.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[idrankwhat 0]

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...and we'll just put those that lost jobs at Coca-Cola, Pepsico, et al on welfare? Can you really look at the impact of what you say?

They would use sugar instead, just like they used to here and just like they still do in other countries. The reason that they use HFCS is because of the sugar tariffs that we put on imports and the massive corporate welfare that goes to companies like ADM to protect the domestic sugar industry.

[Misternatural 0]

"First you get de sugar, den you get de power, den you get de women."-
Homer Simpson

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[idrankwhat 0]

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"First you get de sugar, den you get de power, den you get de women."-
Homer Simpson

Who is he so wise as Homer?
The sugar lobby is one of the most influential in Washington and one of the biggest recipients of corporate welfare.
mmmmmmm.......donut.