Since billvon will not post this.......

[jakee 1,596]

Show me an actual post from Kallend or Bill that shows they believe in man made GW not because of actual evidence for man made GW but because of lack of evidence for the alternative.

While you're at it, maybe you could finally tell me who thinks Hansen is a loony.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

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Show me an actual post from Kallend or Bill that shows they believe in man made GW not because of actual evidence for man made GW but because of lack of evidence for the alternative.

While you're at it, maybe you could finally tell me who thinks Hansen is a loony.

You just don't get it do you. Lets try it this way. Show me incontrovertible evidence man IS causing GWing.

Oh, and I did reply before about Hansen.
But I think he is a looney, will that work?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,150]

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Good, this is a great start to get you on record so specifically. I wonder what your definition will be tomorrow seeing how this is not happening to any extend over there right now.

Are you looking in your mirror again? You are just incredible in your ability to reach totally illogical conclusions.

From the article:

By this measure, the war in Iraq has been a civil war not simply since the escalation of internecine killings following the bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra in February, but at least since the United States handed over formal control to an interim Iraqi government in June 2004.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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Good, this is a great start to get you on record so specifically. I wonder what your definition will be tomorrow seeing how this is not happening to any extend over there right now.

Are you looking in your mirror again? You are just incredible in your ability to reach totally illogical conclusions.

From the article:

By this measure, the war in Iraq has been a civil war not simply since the escalation of internecine killings following the bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra in February, but at least since the United States handed over formal control to an interim Iraqi government in June 2004.

..and the next "measure" will be?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,120]

>and the next "measure" will be?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[rushmc 23]

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>and the next "measure" will be?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Nice sir, nice

When Iraqis were getting killed in greater numbers than today the "civil war" screeching was ongoing. Why, because the left had a measure that became moot. So, now, even you have to admit the surge, which if I remember correctly, you made numerous posts showing it was not working, is now working. So, the next "measure (see, here is that word again) has become there is no political progress in Iraq. No discussion of the surge working? Hmmm, what will the next measure be when political progress becomes so great that the drive by media will have to admit that???


No, I have no idea what "measure" means in the context of this thread now do I?

Next insult?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

The point of this thread was to point out that you no longer made posts regarding the surge or how things were going over there in Iraq. I would ask why, but we all know the answer now don't we.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,120]

>I would ask why, but we all know the answer now don't we.

Because I know exactly what your answers will be. I just look on Newsmax, FOX or Rush's site. Why waste time typing?

The war has failed; we are just marking time until we can get out and end the violence. You will continue to protest that I'm wrong, that WE ARE WINNING! IT'S GREAT! YOU LOONY LIBS ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Until, that is, someone comes along with enough sense to get us out of there, at which point you'll declare victory, said it was all Bush's doing, the mistakes that were made were because of the lying liberal media (and the democrats of course) and that it all happened exactly as planned. 4000 dead americans? Great! Trillions spent? Sounds like a tax cut! Shattered nation? Nonsense, FOX says a new school opened!

Why interrupt your story with anything you don't want to hear? Continue on.

(BTW I think it's cute when you post threads with my name in it. I'm starting to think you have a bit of a crush on me!)

[rushmc 23]

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>I would ask why, but we all know the answer now don't we.

Because I know exactly what your answers will be. I just look on Newsmax, FOX or Rush's site. Why waste time typing?

The war has failed; we are just marking time until we can get out and end the violence. You will continue to protest that I'm wrong, that WE ARE WINNING! IT'S GREAT! YOU LOONY LIBS ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Until, that is, someone comes along with enough sense to get us out of there, at which point you'll declare victory, said it was all Bush's doing, the mistakes that were made were because of the lying liberal media (and the democrats of course) and that it all happened exactly as planned. 4000 dead americans? Great! Trillions spent? Sounds like a tax cut! Shattered nation? Nonsense, FOX says a new school opened!

Why interrupt your story with anything you don't want to hear? Continue on.

(BTW I think it's cute when you post threads with my name in it. I'm starting to think you have a bit of a crush on me!)

Failed huh? That is delusional, and I do have a crush on you now that you asked

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Royd 0]

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I think you own an enormous stash of donkey porn. I've never seen any in your house, but that doesn't mean it's not in a lock up somewhere that I haven't found yet. Since that's almost certainly where the porn is hidden then you can't make any claims about not owning any donkey porn and expect to be taken seriously.

Welcome to the 'What a fucking idiot' Mutual Admiration Society.

[masterblaster72 0]

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>Where?

(ssshhh, he's on a roll)

He is on a roll. See his spelling in these last few posts?

Yay rush.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Hm I don't know but I kind of count it towards a civil war when 2 million people die and most of them because of secterian violence.

Please show me the place where you got the information that says there are two million dead from the so called "civil war" in Iraq.

I suspect that it's a reference to the study published in the British medical journal Lancet last year: "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional cluster sample survey" by epidemiologists from John Hopkins University School of Public Health. That study estimated that close to 650,000 Iraqis had been killed between March 2003 and 2006 due to violence associated with war (i.e., from Coalition forces, insurgents, IEDs, air strikes, etc).

The values are higher than any other count of which I am aware. For example, Iraq Body Count, which relies on cross-referenced reports of specific fatalities, indicates 78,690 - 85,711 violent Iraqi deaths since 2003. And the JHU fatality estimate values have been much disputed/dismissed in the public press & political arena.

While I'm only an 'unauthorized armchair epidemiologist,' the sampling and analysis method (statistics) appears robust to me; and more importantly, has not been successfully challenged by folks who do epidemiology and health statistics for a living. The most resounding criticisms relate the the sampling methodology.

It's such a *huge* number ... particularly in comparison to all other estimates (including the official Iraqi Ministry of Health, the UN, and WHO) ... that one kind of has to go 'huh'? Initial skepticism is warranted ... but the study and its estimate do seem to hold up to scrutiny.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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Based on your statistics about munitions, and the fact that we can't find them all, I would also present that as a point that the WMDs could be anywhere, and some probably do exist, thus shutting down the 'No WMDs' argument.

Another viable corollary (conclusion) based on the munitions and IED information is that if there were chemical or biological weapons that the insurgents would have recovered them and used them. The lack of use of traditional CW or BW agents is something of ex post facto argument against the assertion that Hussayn reconstituted his weapons programs btw Gulf War I and OIF.

I.e., If Big AQ or Little AQ (networked affiliates) had a capability to escalate, I see nothing to suggest they would not use it. Do you have evidence otherwise?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Royd 0]

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I.e., If Big AQ or Little AQ (networked affiliates) had a capability to escalate, I see nothing to suggest they would not use it. Do you have evidence otherwise?

If the standard munitions were available in the quantity that your statistics show, why haven't they continued with the same level of violence unless they are:

Running out of ammo, running out of committed soldiers, or both?

Either way, from my point of view, we have gained the upper hand and are winning the fight.

[Andy9o8 2]

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I.e., If Big AQ or Little AQ (networked affiliates) had a capability to escalate, I see nothing to suggest they would not use it. Do you have evidence otherwise?

If the standard munitions were available in the quantity that your statistics show, why haven't they continued with the same level of violence unless they are:

Running out of ammo, running out of committed soldiers, or both?

Either way, from my point of view, we have gained the upper hand and are winning the fight.

Which does nothing to refute the point that an absence of WMD found, coupled with an absence of WMD used, is not evidence of their existence, it is evidence of their non-existence.

[jakee 1,596]

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You just don't get it do you. Lets try it this way. Show me incontrovertible evidence man IS causing GWing.

This is exactly the point you are missing, and exactly why your attempt at logic was so poor. Evidence does not need to be proof in order to aid in forming an opinion. It is not a binary system, it is not 'concrete proof' vs 'no evidence' with nothing in between.

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Oh, and I did reply before about Hansen.

A reply is not an answer. All your replies were dodges. You never showed me one single person in the GW movement who thinks he is a loony. Because you made it up.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,596]

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I think you own an enormous stash of donkey porn. I've never seen any in your house, but that doesn't mean it's not in a lock up somewhere that I haven't found yet. Since that's almost certainly where the porn is hidden then you can't make any claims about not owning any donkey porn and expect to be taken seriously.

Welcome to the 'What a fucking idiot' Mutual Admiration Society.

I notice you haven't denied the existence of the stash. Yet more non-evidence tht proves your stash exists!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[nigel99 619]

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A reply is not an answer. All your replies were dodges. You never showed me one single person in the GW movement who thinks he is a loony.

My mind refuses to associate GW with Global Warming instead I tend to read GW as refering to Mr Bush! I think lots of people think he is a loony

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[kallend 2,150]

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You just don't get it do you. Lets try it this way. Show me incontrovertible evidence man IS causing GWing.

This is exactly the point you are missing, and exactly why your attempt at logic was so poor. Evidence does not need to be proof in order to aid in forming an opinion. It is not a binary system, it is not 'concrete proof' vs 'no evidence' with nothing in between.

.

The logic is perfect, if you use "Through the Looking Glass" as the model.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freethefly 6]

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As far as WMDs “in reserve,” I don’t see any such indication. If you do, I would be very interested in the sources.

I'll let you do the source finding. You seem to do an excellent job. Somehow, I think that you are in your element. Also, you seem to hold no bias in your reports.

Based on your statistics about munitions, and the fact that we can't find them all, I would also present that as a point that the WMDs could be anywhere, and some probably do exist, thus shutting down the 'No WMDs' argument.

Does this mean that Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy may also exist?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[nerdgirl 0]

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If the standard munitions were available in the quantity that your statistics show, why haven't they continued with the same level of violence unless they are:

Running out of ammo, running out of committed soldiers, or both?

Lack of ammunition: Not that I see evidence of;
Decrease of willing/unwilling fighters: Perhaps – "why" is the critical question, imho;
... and then-some – more than those two dynamics are at play.

Shift in alliances (whether temporary or permanent) may very well be one factor.

One could imagine a rationale strategy (if one were cynical) that the most effective way for Iraqis to get American troops out of Iraq (‘their country’) is first to get the AQ-affiliated insurgents out … or at least make them less visible. It’s an extreme & simplified version of telling the ‘boss’ what he wants to hear, so that he’ll go away. It’s also not without historical precedence, e.g., behavior of lesser states of the former Soviet Union and behavior of those who surrounded Saddam Hussayn.

I'm more concerned with the penultimate end - action against AQ-affiliates, than with the eventual other end (decrease in the level and type of US troop activity in Iraq). If motivation to the latter gets Iraqis to do the former – yeah!

As we all know, Hussayn was a brutal, oppressive dictator; he was not, however, a radical Islamist enforcing their own interpretation of Sharia law. For example, in Anbar province, AQ-affiliated insurgents began trying to enforce their ‘law’ over tribal ‘law,’ including the execution of at least a couple minor tribal leaders (sheiks) or sons of sheiks, which angered many of the local leaders. What conclusion can one come to when some other force is considered “brutal” compared to Hussayn and his ruling Baathist party? This seems to have been an equal or close to equal factor in the apparent stabilization of Anbar and willingness to assist the both the Iraqi Army and US Marines as the ‘surge’, imo.

These are not some incredibly novel observations on my part; Col David Galula, in Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice, argued that “insurgencies are revolutionary wars” whose outcome is determined by control of and support from the populace. His experience was in Algeria. I don’t know if I can imagine how weary the Iraqi people are of war/insurgency/oppression.

Or some other reasons, such as the
-- Single biggest contributing factor, imo: “Balkanization” Shi’a and Sunni ethnic groups, the Kurds were already relatively centralized in the north, via internal displacement and exodus by almost 4M, i.e., ~15% of the population; (specific citations herein)
-- Avoiding the most serious issues: the central Iraqi government has not resolved the most contentious issue -- distribution of oil revenues -- among the many yet to be addressed
-- Increase in number and capability of Iraqi Army and police, as should be hoped/expected given the amount of US taxpayer $$$ and considerable effort of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines, along with federal civilians and contracted personal.

To quote Lt Gen Odierno (2nd paragraph from the link Marc posted originally in this thread the environment is about the same in terms of security in my opinion [emphasis nerdgirl]," he said. "What is different from then is that the Iraqi security forces are significantly more mature."

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Rookie120 0]

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The war has failed; we are just marking time until we can get out and end the violence. You will continue to protest that I'm wrong, that WE ARE WINNING! IT'S GREAT! YOU LOONY LIBS ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG!

So tell us what they have to do to declare a victory?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[rushmc 23]

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The war has failed; we are just marking time until we can get out and end the violence. You will continue to protest that I'm wrong, that WE ARE WINNING! IT'S GREAT! YOU LOONY LIBS ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG!

So tell us what they have to do to declare a victory?

In thier world that would be to pull out (aka surrender or lose)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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In thier world that would be to pull out (aka surrender or lose)

More hyperbole from the great defender of the keyboard.. that is some crazy brave shit taking on all those insurgents with your keyboard.

[SwampThing 0]

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In thier world that would be to pull out (aka surrender or lose)

More hyperbole from the great defender of the keyboard.. that is some crazy brave shit taking on all those insurgents with your keyboard.

Let's dance!

The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"