Since billvon will not post this.......

[rushmc 23]

because it does not fit his world view template, I will. (since it does fit MY world view template)

I still await the "civil war" the Bush doctrine "denier's" predicted

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317025,00.html


this post is intentionally meant to provoke the Bush bashers

Hey, at least I am honest

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

...can it be any less relevant than the death watch numbers count posted by others?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,150]

" Iraq Violence at Lowest Levels Since 2004"

Yep, 2004 was a really peaceful year in Iraq!

US fatalities:

Jan-04 47
Feb-04 20
Mar-04 52
Apr-04 135
May-04 80
Jun-04 42
Jul-04 54
Aug-04 66
Sep-04 80
Oct-04 64
Nov-04 137
Dec-04 72

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

" Iraq Violence at Lowest Levels Since 2004"

Yep, 2004 was a really peaceful year in Iraq!

US fatalities:

Jan-04 47
Feb-04 20
Mar-04 52
Apr-04 135
May-04 80
Jun-04 42
Jul-04 54
Aug-04 66
Sep-04 80
Oct-04 64
Nov-04 137
Dec-04 72

I am still waiting for the civil way youall said was happening

Things are moving the right direction in Iraq. Iraq will not be an issue in 08. (it really wasnt in 06 either but that is another thread)


So, your point is?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

" Iraq Violence at Lowest Levels Since 2004"

Yep, 2004 was a really peaceful year in Iraq!

US fatalities:

Jan-04 47
Feb-04 20
Mar-04 52
Apr-04 135
May-04 80
Jun-04 42
Jul-04 54
Aug-04 66
Sep-04 80
Oct-04 64
Nov-04 137
Dec-04 72

I really love that the only way you can defend your position is to continually move the target/goal/dream/ECT.

I await your next shift to define what wining is!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

" Iraq Violence at Lowest Levels Since 2004"

Yep, 2004 was a really peaceful year in Iraq!

US fatalities:

Jan-04 47
Feb-04 20
Mar-04 52
Apr-04 135
May-04 80
Jun-04 42
Jul-04 54
Aug-04 66
Sep-04 80
Oct-04 64
Nov-04 137
Dec-04 72

I am still waiting for the civil way youall said was happening

Things are moving the right direction in Iraq. Iraq will not be an issue in 08. (it really wasnt in 06 either but that is another thread)


So, your point is?

If you define "civil war" to exclude armed hostilites bewteen rival factions within a country (such as, for example Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq), then no, according to that definition there has not been a "civil war".

The number of Iraqi deaths since 2003 "Mission Accomplished" is rather more than the number of deaths in the English CIVIL WAR some 350 years ago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

" Iraq Violence at Lowest Levels Since 2004"

Yep, 2004 was a really peaceful year in Iraq!

US fatalities:

Jan-04 47
Feb-04 20
Mar-04 52
Apr-04 135
May-04 80
Jun-04 42
Jul-04 54
Aug-04 66
Sep-04 80
Oct-04 64
Nov-04 137
Dec-04 72

I really love that the only way you can defend your position is to continually move the target/goal/dream/ECT.

I await your next shift to define what wining is!

Wining, goes with dining.


On the subject of moving the target, who said, on March 4, 2003:
"It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."


Who defined the goal initially as elimination of WMDs and redefined it a half dozen times, as each successive goal turned out to be a lie?

I wonder who that was.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

" Iraq Violence at Lowest Levels Since 2004"

Yep, 2004 was a really peaceful year in Iraq!

US fatalities:

Jan-04 47
Feb-04 20
Mar-04 52
Apr-04 135
May-04 80
Jun-04 42
Jul-04 54
Aug-04 66
Sep-04 80
Oct-04 64
Nov-04 137
Dec-04 72

I am still waiting for the civil way youall said was happening

Things are moving the right direction in Iraq. Iraq will not be an issue in 08. (it really wasnt in 06 either but that is another thread)


So, your point is?

If you define "civil war" to exclude armed hostilites bewteen rival factions within a country (such as, for example Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq), then no, according to that definition there has not been a "civil war".

The number of Iraqi deaths since 2003 "Mission Accomplished" is rather more than the number of deaths in the English CIVIL WAR some 350 years ago.

Please keep posting sir. I enjoy the opportunities you provide showing when you are wrong
So, what will the next measurement of success be? What will you move it to now? I will have to admit ,I am surprised (disappointed)you did not come up with anything new here, yet

Edited to add; I have not "defined' civil war in any way. That has been your work on this site, not mine

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

I still await the "civil war" the Bush doctrine "denier's" predicted.

Dang, I was hoping there was chocolate on that line.

Low-level internal violence? Yes.
Rwanda-style civil war? No.

“Why not?” is a reasonable question.

One part of the answer:
Iraq has an estimated population of 27.5M (according to 2007 CIA Factbook)

Again from CIA estimates (others give significantly higher numbers, but trying to stay consistent and use most conservative estimates): “approximately two million Iraqis have fled the conflict in Iraq, with the majority taking refuge in Syria and Jordan, and lesser numbers to Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, and Turkey”

I[nternally] D[isplaced] P[ersons]s: “1.9 million (2007)”

So >7% of the population (or more) have voted with their feet and left.
Another 7% of the population has relocated far enough to be internally displaced.
There’s been a Balkanization by ethnic and religious lines, which I consider the single largest factor "why not."

By comparison, the population of US is ~301M.
To lose as >15% of the population, the US populations of Iowa, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Mississippi … or Illinois, Nebraska, Idaho, and Wyoming … or 3/4 New York State … or 2/5 California would have to move to Canada, Mexico, etc. (US populations number from US Census data)

The current Iraqi government has also avoided the single most contentious issue: distribution of oil revenues. Failure to address the issue is one method to keep it from becoming contentious. Another factor "why not."

Additionally, what’s the specific line in which insurgency passes over to civil war?

Again, from the CIA Factbook: “an insurgency against the Government of Iraq and Coalition forces is primarily concentrated in Baghdad and in areas north, northeast, and west of the capital; the diverse, multigroup insurgency consists principally of Sunni Arabs whose only common denominator is a shared desire to oust the Coalition and end US influence in Iraq; a number of predominantly Shia militias, some associated with political parties, challenge governmental authority in Baghdad and southern Iraq.”

If civil war is defined very narrowly (i.e., mass ethnic genocide, a la Rwanda) then that's semantics. The US, as far as I am aware, has not called the Janjaweed insurgent in Darfur a Sudanese civil war; although at one point the US State Dept did refer to pseudo-Maoists insurgents in Nepal as leading to a civil war if the US did not support the Nepali military with guns, equipment, etc.

---- ----- ----- -----

Flip it over – is there a robust, Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq? No.

Is there some form of representative parliamentary democracy? If ya squint right, you can see one.

If I was going anywhere other than a few Kurdish towns (e.g., Sulaymania) w/out US military (preferred) or PMC escort, even I would want a gun or two and knowledge/training how to use it!

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rushmc 23]

Points taken and well made. I only ask,, how long should it take to get a stable government seated? Who decides how long is too long. How long did it take our country?

I have no problem with the questions. I have no problem with the debate. I do have problems (not with you) with those that have no other agenda than to attack what decsions have been made and implimented, simply because of who has made them.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[1969912 0]

You guys need a.......

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Hausse 0]

Hm I don't know but I kind of count it towards a civil war when 2 million people die and most of them because of secterian violence.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Hm I don't know but I kind of count it towards a civil war when 2 million people die and most of them because of secterian violence.

Please show me the place where you got the information that says there are two million dead from the so called "civil war" in Iraq.

[Royd 0]

I said in a thread about 4 months ago, something to the effect that the last wave of violence by AQ was their Hail Mary pass at the end of the game, with no real hope of winning.

Unless their munitions are being resupplied they have to run out at some time, but then again, they may be holding those WMDs in reserve.

I also believe that you can only get so many people to fight for a cause who's only message is death.

[rushmc 23]

Now that is scarry!!!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

Now that is scarry!!!!

Is it at all possible for you to not make a post with a misspelling in it? This post was only four words for fucks sake.

SPELLCHECKER...it's your friend.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Now that is scarry!!!!

Is it at all possible for you to not make a post with a misspelling in it? This post was only four words for fucks sake.

SPELLCHECKER...it's your friend.

KMA my friend

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nigel99 619]

There was a very interesting comment by a UK Colonel on the radio this morning covering the withdrawal of UK troops from Basra. Doing my best to quote verbatim (can't find it on BBC) he said "The UK is leaving Basra in disgrace and defeated. The American's are starting to get the rest of the country under control and they will then need to come and clean up this mess".

It was a very different view from previous UK military people slagging off the US. Maybe things are turning around at last.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

There was a very interesting comment by a UK Colonel on the radio this morning covering the withdrawal of UK troops from Basra. Doing my best to quote verbatim (can't find it on BBC) he said "The UK is leaving Basra in disgrace and defeated. The American's are starting to get the rest of the country under control and they will then need to come and clean up this mess".

It was a very different view from previous UK military people slagging off the US. Maybe things are turning around at last.

Dam, I had not heard this

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nigel99 619]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today4_basra_20071217.ram

If you want to hear it from horses mouth. Listen to Adam Ingram interview 8:10am

I think you may hear the interview with the soldier (he was just before hand).

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today4_basra_20071217.ram

If you want to hear it from horses mouth. Listen to Adam Ingram interview 8:10am

I think you may hear the interview with the soldier (he was just before hand).

Thanks, I will give a listen

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[1969912 0]

This might be the soldier:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3061763.ece

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[nigel99 619]

Quote

I think the chaos in Basra is a temporary thing, because I am certain that the US - which is fast getting control of the rest of the country - will sort it out.

“It leaves the UK’s military reputation badly damaged.”

Thanks it is and this is the exact quote. I hadn't quite realised that it was Tim Collins - he has been a vocal critic for some time.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Amazon 7]

Dont worry one of these slugnuts will come along and call him a fake soldier .. any minute now

[Royd 0]

Quote

Dont worry one of these slugnuts will come along and call him a fake soldier .. any minute now

Looks like you beat everyone to it.