Another US Shooting-this time a church

[rushmc 23]

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I think the problem most people are having with your proposal is that if you make a gun impossible to steal, you also make it impossible to get to if you need it.

What a cop-out.

If you keep a gun for personal security, then why is keeping IT secure impossible?

What could happen, under your proposed "solution":

Four armed men break into Katie's house. Katie hears them, opens her gun safe, gets her .40 Glock, and calls 911. She locks her bedroom door and hides in the closet, waiting for the police. The men break down Katie's door. They ransack her bedroom. They enter the closet. Seeing their weapons and fearing for her life, Katie lawfully fires her weapon at the men, killing two and wounding a third before being incapacitated and raped by the third and fourth attacker. The attackers leave, taking Katie's jewelry, electronics, and her weapon. The police finally turn up forty five minutes later and find two dead perpetrators, a blood trail leading out the door, and Katie in a coma. She wakes up a week later handcuffed to her hospital bed because the weapon she had removed from her gun safe to lawfully defend herself was stolen by her attackers and used in another robbery the next day.

That is why I don't like your "solution."

OOooohhhhh

Game, Set, and Match

nicley done.

Common sense is hard to defeat

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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If you keep a gun for personal security, then why is keeping IT secure impossible?

Because if we went by your superior standards, what you consider secure would render my firearm useless!

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Lefty 0]

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I think the problem most people are having with your proposal is that if you make a gun impossible to steal, you also make it impossible to get to if you need it.

What a cop-out.

If you keep a gun for personal security, then why is keeping IT secure impossible?

Not even banks can keep some criminals out. Are you saying that after someone's house gets burglarized while they are home (and possibly incapacitated) or not home (and therefore unable to stop the intruders from doing whatever they please) and their guns are taken, they should be held responsible for crimes committed with that gun? Man, the silliness of that idea doesn't really sink in until you type it out yourself. Go ahead, everyone...try it.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[Rookie120 0]

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Go ahead, everyone...try it.

I have! Several times, but I guess since I am not a superior minded profesor I just dont see his point. If my IQ was 40 points higher I bet I could get it.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,112]

>The "bet"? Irralevant to the whole thread.

I didn't think so! Just as well; you would have lost. Turns out his name is Matthew.

> I am still surprised by the bigotry against christians as if they
>are so "dangerous."

No more dangerous than any other religion. Here in the US, mass murderers are more likely to be christian just because there are more christians here than any other religion.

[rushmc 23]

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>The "bet"? Irralevant to the whole thread.

I didn't think so! Just as well; you would have lost. Turns out his name is Matthew.

> I am still surprised by the bigotry against christians as if they
>are so "dangerous."

No more dangerous than any other religion. Here in the US, mass murderers are more likely to be christian just because there are more christians here than any other religion.

Aaahhhh, but that does not change the general point of my comment and does not make your bet any less relevant.

Bigotry against christians is ok and accepted (even encouraged) in this country. (kind of like racism against whites) Say something against a muslim and you are "intolerant" Oh and for the record, my name is Marc

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

Looks like it was the same man who shot up Arvada and the Springs! What a dipshit!

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ARVADA – The uncle of the man police believe was responsible for the deadly shootings at New Life Church in Colorado Springs and at Youth With a Mission in Arvada said his whole family asks for forgiveness.


"Our family cannot express the magnitude of our grief for the victims and families of this tragedy. On behalf of our family and our son, we ask for forgiveness," said Pastor Phil Abeyta, 24-year-old Matthew Murray's uncle. "We cannot understand why this has happened. We ask for prayer for the victims and their families during this time of grief. We are cooperating fully with the police agencies involved in the investigation of the events that led to this tragedy. Respectfully, the Murray family."

He made the statement at the Youth With a Mission center in Arvada after police announced Monday they had linked Murray to both that shooting and the one in Colorado Springs.

Three people, including the gunman, 24-year-old Matthew Murray, died in the attack Sunday at the 10,000-plus member New Life Church. Two others died at the earlier shooting at the Youth With a Mission center. Five people were wounded in the attacks. The shootings occurred about 12 hours and 65 miles apart.

At a joint news conference Monday afternoon, police from Arvada and Colorado Springs went into more detail about Sunday's grim events.

Murray fired between 25 and 30 shots both inside and outside New Life Church, according to Colorado Springs Police Sgt. Jeff Jensen.

He walked into the east entrance of New Life Church firing his rifle and a security guard, Jeanne Assam, shot him. Jensen said Murray traveled approximately 80 feet down the hallway before he was hit. Police say Assam shot Murray, but could not positively say it was her shots that killed him.

Arvada Police Chief Don Wick said on Monday afternoon they had matched gun casings found in Arvada to one of the handguns they found with Murray in Colorado Springs.

Investigators also say the physical description matches and evidence found at his home, plus interviews with family members, led them to believe Murray was the gunman in Arvada as well as Colorado Springs.

Police say Murray had a backpack with him in Colorado Springs with about 1,000 rounds of ammunition. He was armed with an assault rifle and two handguns.

Authorities say 18-year-old Stephanie Works and 16-year-old Rachael Works died from their injuries at New Life Church. They were hit in the parking lot, along with their father. Fifty-one-year-old David Works is hospitalized with two gunshot wounds to the abdomen and groin area, and is listed in stable condition.

Two other people injured in the New Life shootings were treated and released from a hospital. They're identified as 40-year-old Judy Purcell and 59-year-old Larry Bourbannais.

In Arvada, 26-year-old Tiffany Johnson of Minnesota and 24-year-old Philip Crouse of Alaska were killed. Twenty-four-year-old Dan Griebenow of South Dakota and 22-year-old Charlie Blanch were injured.

Youth With a Mission (YWAM) says Murray was a student there in 2002. He was enrolled, but did not complete the program. YWAM said in a statement, "Murray did not complete the lecture phase of his Discipleship Training School, nor did he participate in the field assignment. The program directors felt that issues with his health made it inappropriate for him to do so. Murray left the Arvada training center and no one at the facility recalls that he has made any other visits or had any communication with the center since that time."

On Friday evening, Peter Warren, spokesperson with YWAM said they are still trying to recover from the tragedy.

"We've gathered together with all of our staff and students to be able to process together and pray for one another and cry together," said Warren.

Chief Wick says he has met with the families of the victims of the Arvada shootings.

"They are doing pretty well considering the circumstances and are supporting the investigation," said Wick.

9Wants to Know has learned Murray lived with his family in Englewood. His father, Dr. Ronald Murray, is a well-known doctor.

Investigators searched that home on Sunday night.

Officers were seen removing 15 to 20 boxes from his home Sunday night and camera flashes from inside the home could be seen. Investigators from the ATF, FBI, Arapahoe County, Arvada and Colorado Springs all participated in the search. Additionally, Arapahoe County's bomb squad was at the home as a precaution, but the neighborhood was not evacuated.

Neighbors described Murray as a loner and as someone who was very quiet and didn't talk to neighbors.

A friend also told The Associated Press that Murray grew up in a deeply religious Christian household.

9NEWS has learned Murray's family attends His Love Fellowship at 8th and Kalamath in Denver. That is where Abeyta, Murray's uncle, is the pastor. However, several church members say Matthew Murray had not attended that church in several years.

His Love Fellowship elder Jim Wurst says Murray's mother is an active member in the church community.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,112]

>Bigotry against christians is ok and accepted (even encouraged) in this
>country.

Bigotry against any religion is often accepted here (sadly.) There's endless reasons given to hate the muslims, the christians, the jews, even the atheists. Currently muslims have been on the receiving end of a lot of hatred because of the despicable actions of a few extremists. But their faith is not to blame any more than the christian faith is to blame for christian mass murderers here (which people often forget.)

>and does not make your bet any less relevant.

Exactly. Whether someone's name is Marc, or Matthew, or Mohammed does not mean diddly.

[rushmc 23]

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>Bigotry against christians is ok and accepted (even encouraged) in this
>country.

Bigotry against any religion is often accepted here (sadly.) There's endless reasons given to hate the muslims, the christians, the jews, even the atheists. Currently muslims have been on the receiving end of a lot of hatred because of the despicable actions of a few extremists. But their faith is not to blame any more than the christian faith is to blame for christian mass murderers here (which people often forget.)

>and does not make your bet any less relevant.

Exactly. Whether someone's name is Marc, or Matthew, or Mohammed does not mean diddly.

Point taken

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,147]

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All you gun enthusiasts can do is whine "I dont see a way to do it " whine whine whine.

What a cop out. All of you!

*Inserts "Get your head out of the clouds and face reality" remark.*

Eventually you'll have to accept that criminals break laws. Throw more laws at them if you want to. The laws haven't solved the problem, and making more laws won't, either.

Here' some reality:

PS I didn't call for more laws. I called for uniform laws and for gun owners to take responsibility for the security of their own weapons.

Hardly an unreasonable request; that someone who wants to possess a lethal weapon should take responsibility for it's security.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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>Bigotry against christians is ok and accepted (even encouraged) in this
>country.

Bigotry against any religion is often accepted here (sadly.) There's endless reasons given to hate the muslims, the christians, the jews, even the atheists. Currently muslims have been on the receiving end of a lot of hatred because of the despicable actions of a few extremists. But their faith is not to blame any more than the christian faith is to blame for christian mass murderers here (which people often forget.)

>and does not make your bet any less relevant.

Exactly. Whether someone's name is Marc, or Matthew, or Mohammed does not mean diddly.

On another note, comments and speech, regardless of the bigotry, should be allowed. (Not violence producing however) While is can and should be condemned by the masses, allowing it is protected in our constitution and, it allows us to see what some one or some group really is. Scary and truth revealing at the same time

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

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Do you know for a fact that there was no one with a gun at the first location?

Acconrding to this the answer is yes!

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ARVADA – The uncle of the man police believe was responsible for the deadly shootings at New Life Church in Colorado Springs and at Youth With a Mission in Arvada said his whole family asks for forgiveness.


"Our family cannot express the magnitude of our grief for the victims and families of this tragedy. On behalf of our family and our son, we ask for forgiveness," said Pastor Phil Abeyta, 24-year-old Matthew Murray's uncle. "We cannot understand why this has happened. We ask for prayer for the victims and their families during this time of grief. We are cooperating fully with the police agencies involved in the investigation of the events that led to this tragedy. Respectfully, the Murray family."

He made the statement at the Youth With a Mission center in Arvada after police announced Monday they had linked Murray to both that shooting and the one in Colorado Springs.

Three people, including the gunman, 24-year-old Matthew Murray, died in the attack Sunday at the 10,000-plus member New Life Church. Two others died at the earlier shooting at the Youth With a Mission center. Five people were wounded in the attacks. The shootings occurred about 12 hours and 65 miles apart.

At a joint news conference Monday afternoon, police from Arvada and Colorado Springs went into more detail about Sunday's grim events.

Murray fired between 25 and 30 shots both inside and outside New Life Church, according to Colorado Springs Police Sgt. Jeff Jensen.

He walked into the east entrance of New Life Church firing his rifle and a security guard, Jeanne Assam, shot him. Jensen said Murray traveled approximately 80 feet down the hallway before he was hit. Police say Assam shot Murray, but could not positively say it was her shots that killed him.

Arvada Police Chief Don Wick said on Monday afternoon they had matched gun casings found in Arvada to one of the handguns they found with Murray in Colorado Springs.

Investigators also say the physical description matches and evidence found at his home, plus interviews with family members, led them to believe Murray was the gunman in Arvada as well as Colorado Springs.

Police say Murray had a backpack with him in Colorado Springs with about 1,000 rounds of ammunition. He was armed with an assault rifle and two handguns.

Authorities say 18-year-old Stephanie Works and 16-year-old Rachael Works died from their injuries at New Life Church. They were hit in the parking lot, along with their father. Fifty-one-year-old David Works is hospitalized with two gunshot wounds to the abdomen and groin area, and is listed in stable condition.

Two other people injured in the New Life shootings were treated and released from a hospital. They're identified as 40-year-old Judy Purcell and 59-year-old Larry Bourbannais.

In Arvada, 26-year-old Tiffany Johnson of Minnesota and 24-year-old Philip Crouse of Alaska were killed. Twenty-four-year-old Dan Griebenow of South Dakota and 22-year-old Charlie Blanch were injured.

Youth With a Mission (YWAM) says Murray was a student there in 2002. He was enrolled, but did not complete the program. YWAM said in a statement, "Murray did not complete the lecture phase of his Discipleship Training School, nor did he participate in the field assignment. The program directors felt that issues with his health made it inappropriate for him to do so. Murray left the Arvada training center and no one at the facility recalls that he has made any other visits or had any communication with the center since that time."

On Friday evening, Peter Warren, spokesperson with YWAM said they are still trying to recover from the tragedy.

"We've gathered together with all of our staff and students to be able to process together and pray for one another and cry together," said Warren.

Chief Wick says he has met with the families of the victims of the Arvada shootings.

"They are doing pretty well considering the circumstances and are supporting the investigation," said Wick.

9Wants to Know has learned Murray lived with his family in Englewood. His father, Dr. Ronald Murray, is a well-known doctor.

Investigators searched that home on Sunday night.

Officers were seen removing 15 to 20 boxes from his home Sunday night and camera flashes from inside the home could be seen. Investigators from the ATF, FBI, Arapahoe County, Arvada and Colorado Springs all participated in the search. Additionally, Arapahoe County's bomb squad was at the home as a precaution, but the neighborhood was not evacuated.

Neighbors described Murray as a loner and as someone who was very quiet and didn't talk to neighbors.

A friend also told The Associated Press that Murray grew up in a deeply religious Christian household.

9NEWS has learned Murray's family attends His Love Fellowship at 8th and Kalamath in Denver. That is where Abeyta, Murray's uncle, is the pastor. However, several church members say Matthew Murray had not attended that church in several years.

His Love Fellowship elder Jim Wurst says Murray's mother is an active member in the church community.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Richards 0]

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Still waiting to hear YOUR ideas for keeping guns out of the hands of loonies and criminals.

I don't think there's a good way to keep guns out of the hands of loonies and criminals, so I think the best alternative is to make sure that the sane and law abiding can shoot back if they want to.

Why must the two concepts be mutually exclusive?

They do not have to be mutually exclusive. This is speakers corner however.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Why is it that the "sane and law abiding" are SO unwilling to take responsibility for keeping their guns out of the hands of madmen?

Because "madmen" by definition are "mad" and therefore unpredictable and uncontrollable and nobody can possibly plan for every contingency?

And you can't outsmart someone who's deranged? Really?

Surely you know better than to think that intelligence and mental stability are linked. Were we able to do testing on these guys before they get blown away in attacks, I think we'd find them to be measurably above the norm in intelligence. But not in emotional and social measures.

Are you renewing the discussion about your anti american proposal because your ass got chewed out on the first attempt?

Write this on the chalkboard 100 times (no using of your slav...errr, I mean graduate assistants.)
"presumed innocent until proven guilty"

[Amazon 7]

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On a serious note. I am sorry you are so threatened by the religous

After 8 years of parochial schools I find it VERY easy to be intolerant.. of the VERY intolerant....constantly spouting bullshit about how much christianity is under attack.. yet they themselves support attacks on womens health.. gays... and numerous other segments of our society. They seem to want to legislate morality.. when GOD.. gave us ALL free will to make choices... NOT to have it crammed down all of our throats.

Jesus.... please protect me from your "followers"

[Lindsey 0]

BWAHAHAHA! I can attest to that. Heh.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Amazon 7]

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I think we'd find them to be measurably above the norm in intelligence. But not in emotional and social measures.

Ah yes.. the socially inept... the kind of guys who cant get a date.... and post to SC on saturday nights

[ryoder 1,590]

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This brave armed security guard was a volunteer, a woman, using her own gun. I want to have a date with this gutsy woman.

She is a former Minneapolis cop, and very easy on the eyes:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html

Edited to add: John! You might be in luck!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3980889&page=1

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When asked about her marital status, Assam said she was single - and then cracked a smile.

"I am not married yet. I will someday. God's going to find me the perfect man," she said.

The most detailed account yet. Two other armed guards wouldn't shoot. The killer fired three shots at the woman as she calmly walked toward him while firing.

http://origin.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_7683781

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[mnealtx 0]

[replyI guess thou shalt not kill was blacked out of that churches commandments and replaced with thou shalt have well armed and trained guards at the doors of the house of god, because surely smith and wesson shall protect thee when the lord is otherwise occupied.

[JohnnyD 0]

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[replyI guess thou shalt not kill was blacked out of that churches commandments and replaced with thou shalt have well armed and trained guards at the doors of the house of god, because surely smith and wesson shall protect thee when the lord is otherwise occupied.

Actually, the text was "Thou shalt not MURDER." - a bit of editing was done from the original Hebrew.

I refer you also to Luke 22:36.

[kallend 2,147]

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I refer you also to Luke 22:36.

We should all buy SWORDS? Do you have stock in Wilkinson?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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[replyI guess thou shalt not kill was blacked out of that churches commandments and replaced with thou shalt have well armed and trained guards at the doors of the house of god, because surely smith and wesson shall protect thee when the lord is otherwise occupied.

Actually, the text was "Thou shalt not MURDER." - a bit of editing was done from the original Hebrew.

I refer you also to Luke 22:36.

[Clownburner 0]

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All you gun enthusiasts can do is whine "I dont see a way to do it " whine whine whine.

What a cop out. All of you!

*Inserts "Get your head out of the clouds and face reality" remark.*

Eventually you'll have to accept that criminals break laws. Throw more laws at them if you want to. The laws haven't solved the problem, and making more laws won't, either.

Here' some reality:

PS I didn't call for more laws. I called for uniform laws and for gun owners to take responsibility for the security of their own weapons.

Hardly an unreasonable request; that someone who wants to possess a lethal weapon should take responsibility for it's security.

That's already a law in most states. In California, you are required to keep your gun secure or you can face charges. Fortunately, there's an exception: If someone steals your gun during the commission of a crime (burglary, robbery, assault) you're not responsible. Thus, if I spend $1000 on a gun safe and someone comes along and gets the guns anyway while robbing my house, I'm not responsible. There's federal laws that require a background check before buying a gun legally, and it's already illegal to steal them.

What about that, exactly, would you change? How would you make guns harder to get for criminals without making them harder to get for non-criminals?

PS: Nice graph. Isn't it wonderful how you can make the data points fit any curve you like by leaving off the data points that don't fit? Where's Switzerland on that graph, again? I'm surprised that a professor would mistake correlation for causation.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[nerdgirl 0]

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I refer you also to Luke 22:36.

Along with Joel 3:10.

And, perhaps, keep in mind and at heart Isaiah 2:4 and Micah 4:3.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 2,147]

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All you gun enthusiasts can do is whine "I dont see a way to do it " whine whine whine.

What a cop out. All of you!

*Inserts "Get your head out of the clouds and face reality" remark.*

Eventually you'll have to accept that criminals break laws. Throw more laws at them if you want to. The laws haven't solved the problem, and making more laws won't, either.

Here' some reality:

PS I didn't call for more laws. I called for uniform laws and for gun owners to take responsibility for the security of their own weapons.

Hardly an unreasonable request; that someone who wants to possess a lethal weapon should take responsibility for it's security.

That's already a law in most states. In California, you are required to keep your gun secure or you can face charges. Fortunately, there's an exception: If someone steals your gun during the commission of a crime (burglary, robbery, assault) you're not responsible. Thus, if I spend $1000 on a gun safe and someone comes along and gets the guns anyway while robbing my house, I'm not responsible. There's federal laws that require a background check before buying a gun legally, and it's already illegal to steal them.

What about that, exactly, would you change? How would you make guns harder to get for criminals without making them harder to get for non-criminals?

PS: Nice graph. Isn't it wonderful how you can make the data points fit any curve you like by leaving off the data points that don't fit? Where's Switzerland on that graph, again? I'm surprised that a professor would mistake correlation for causation.

Why don't you fix it for us? You can also separate out by US state too, to show how the states with highest rates of gun ownership also have the highest gun fatality rates in the USA (Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arizona, TX).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.