Another US Shooting - This time a shopping Mall

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Your proposal is WHAT, then? Sacrifice a few thousand people every year so that you can continue to play with your guns wtih no inconvenience?

You been allowed to spout this claim a few too many times. A few thousand people aren't dying every year because of this problem.

But let's just pretend to agree on it. So what? 43,000 people die every year in cars, 40% of them because people can't be responsible with alcohol. And I know you don't approve of the Patriot Act, passed in response to the deaths of 3000 Americans. But in this case, you don't mind the constitutution violations?

Americans are presumed innocent until proven guilty by a jury of their peers. This is non negotiable. If you got a problem with that, join Shrub on the next plane to China. And stop pretending you actually believe in the Bill of Rights.

[kallend 2,113]

Quote

Quote

Your proposal is WHAT, then? Sacrifice a few thousand people every year so that you can continue to play with your guns wtih no inconvenience?

You been allowed to spout this claim a few too many times. A few thousand people aren't dying every year because of this problem.

But let's just pretend to agree on it. So what? 43,000 people die every year in cars, 40% of them because people can't be responsible with alcohol. And I know you don't approve of the Patriot Act, passed in response to the deaths of 3000 Americans. But in this case, you don't mind the constitutution violations?

Americans are presumed innocent until proven guilty by a jury of their peers. This is non negotiable. If you got a problem with that, join Shrub on the next plane to China. And stop pretending you actually believe in the Bill of Rights.

A gun in your home makes it three times more likely that you or someone you care about will be murdered by a family member or intimate partner (Kellerman,New England Journal of Medicine v329, n.15 1993)

More than one million Americans have died in firearm homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings since 1962. (Fatal Firearm Injuries in the United States 1962-1994. Violence Surveillance Summary Series, No. 3, 1997; Deaths: Final Data for 1995- 1997, National Vital Statistics Report)

In recent years typically some 30,000+ Americans are killed by guns each year.

Nothing to worry about, not a problem.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

Do you have a way to disarm the criminals and the general population simultaneously, and ensure that no more weapons enter the country?

[Botellines 0]

Quote

Not that I disagree with you but what is "reasonable" in this context ?

I am sure that we can both agree on what reasonable is, however, as it has been stated "reasonable" would likely render the guns unusable for home defense.

I would say that at the very minimum a good safe, keeping the gun unloaded at all times and a sound education for your kids.
Also, having only one gun ando a handful of bullets could help. Enough for home defence, but not that much to shoot at the mall.
To me it is too much hustle to own a gun, i couldn´t commit myself to that much responsability, so i don´t have one. Sadly too many people find out that it is too much responsability too late. And many more don´t know yet how big responsability it is.



Rehmwa: I stand corrected about spiderman, you are right, it was his uncle.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Your proposal is WHAT, then? Sacrifice a few thousand people every year so that you can continue to play with your guns wtih no inconvenience?

You been allowed to spout this claim a few too many times. A few thousand people aren't dying every year because of this problem.

But let's just pretend to agree on it. So what? 43,000 people die every year in cars, 40% of them because people can't be responsible with alcohol. And I know you don't approve of the Patriot Act, passed in response to the deaths of 3000 Americans. But in this case, you don't mind the constitutution violations?

Americans are presumed innocent until proven guilty by a jury of their peers. This is non negotiable. If you got a problem with that, join Shrub on the next plane to China. And stop pretending you actually believe in the Bill of Rights.

A gun in your home makes it three times more likely that you or someone you care about will be murdered by a family member or intimate partner (Kellerman,New England Journal of Medicine v329, n.15 1993)

More than one million Americans have died in firearm homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings since 1962. (Fatal Firearm Injuries in the United States 1962-1994. Violence Surveillance Summary Series, No. 3, 1997; Deaths: Final Data for 1995- 1997, National Vital Statistics Report)

In recent years typically some 30,000+ Americans are killed by guns each year.

Nothing to worry about, not a problem.

Funny sir, how you cherry pick data to support an opinion. (no, I am not saying the data you post is a lie but some of it is highly misleading when the points are looked at, but I digress) More die in other ways and I do not see you involoved in any other crusades?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Not that I disagree with you but what is "reasonable" in this context ?

I am sure that we can both agree on what reasonable is, however, as it has been stated "reasonable" would likely render the guns unusable for home defense.

I would say that at the very minimum a good safe, keeping the gun unloaded at all times and a sound education for your kids.
Also, having only one gun ando a handful of bullets could help. Enough for home defence, but not that much to shoot at the mall.
To me it is too much hustle to own a gun, i couldn´t commit myself to that much responsability, so i don´t have one. Sadly too many people find out that it is too much responsability too late. And many more don´t know yet how big responsability it is.



Rehmwa: I stand corrected about spiderman, you are right, it was his uncle.

Bullets can be bought by anyone. Maybe not legally but none the less. Educated the kids? Absolutely and teach them to shoot. Knowing the danger of and having the expertise to handle firearms removes the mystic of weapons and they become another tool in the house. (I have been on both ends of this)
Rendering a weapon in acessable is not acceptable. They are a tool. People kill, guns do not.

Another falacy that will be posted here shortly and has been brought up before.

I have an Eagle Arms AR15. I have 5, 10, 20 and 30 round magazines. I perfer the 10 but that is just me. Anyway, I also have a Browning BAR 30.06. Which weapon is more powerful? Which one looks the most meanacing?

More to talk about

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

A gun in your home makes it three times more likely that you or someone you care about will be murdered by a family member or intimate partner (Kellerman,New England Journal of Medicine v329, n.15 1993)

Gun debates need the Kellerman Law to follow in the steps of Godwin. Or anything using suicides to inflate their numbers. At least you didn't try the 43 routine. You would have to laugh at yourself for shoveling the bullshit.

Stop citing work discredited a decade ago and prove your claim of thousands are killed every year by loonies stealing guns.

[kallend 2,113]

Quote

More die in other ways and I do not see you involoved in any other crusades?

Oh, well, that's all right then. No need to worry about the 30,000+ who will die this year from guns.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,113]

Quote

Knowing the danger of and having the expertise to handle firearms removes the mystic of weapons and they become another tool in the house. (I have been on both ends of this)
Rendering a weapon in acessable is not acceptable. They are a tool. People kill, guns do not.

Another falacy that will be posted here shortly and has been brought up before.

I have an Eagle Arms AR15. I have 5, 10, 20 and 30 round magazines. I perfer the 10 but that is just me. Anyway, I also have a Browning BAR 30.06. Which weapon is more powerful? Which one looks the most meanacing?

More to talk about

Why is securing your weapons against theft by criminals and madmen "unacceptable"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Knowing the danger of and having the expertise to handle firearms removes the mystic of weapons and they become another tool in the house. (I have been on both ends of this)
Rendering a weapon in acessable is not acceptable. They are a tool. People kill, guns do not.

Another falacy that will be posted here shortly and has been brought up before.

I have an Eagle Arms AR15. I have 5, 10, 20 and 30 round magazines. I perfer the 10 but that is just me. Anyway, I also have a Browning BAR 30.06. Which weapon is more powerful? Which one looks the most meanacing?

More to talk about

Why is securing your weapons against theft by criminals and madmen "unacceptable"?

Finally, a question to respond too.

Within reason it is not! However, I think you offer "un"reasonable solutions to nearly unsolvable problems!

What feels good is not reality.

Hitler was a mad man. He was out in the public. Why could he not be stopped????

Dahlmer (spelling) was nuts too. How many did he kill before he was stopped? You stated earlier something about not being able to "out think" a mad man. I ask, are all "mad men" stupid? One might argue that very fact that they "think" so dam differently would make them nearly iimpossible for a sane person to understand and out think?

Solutions to this are not simple and removing weapons (and/or making them impossible for sain people to use) from law abiding people will not keep weapons out of the hands of (as you put it) loonies.

You sir, are the one that needs to "accept" reality IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

No need to worry about the 30,000+ who will die this year from guns.

Holy shit batman! Wherre didi you get that number from?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,113]

Quote

Quote

No need to worry about the 30,000+ who will die this year from guns.

Holy shit batman! Wherre didi you get that number from?

What number do YOU think it is, then? Homicides + suicides + accidents?

www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1071518

Ignorance is bliss, eh Rookie?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

No need to worry about the 30,000+ who will die this year from guns.

Holy shit batman! Wherre didi you get that number from?

It's true. More than half are self inflicted. The gun is the most common choice for Americans to use to commit suicide. Other countries, including those with higher suicide rates, use other methods.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

What number do YOU think it is, then? Homicides + suicides + accidents?

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/...r.fcgi?artid=1071518

Ignorance is bliss, eh Rookie?

I dont know oh great one. So now you go from my gun committing murder if stolen from my home to my gun now being responsible for suicide and accidents? You are stretching my man! Anything else you want to throw at me. Next time show me a graph that doesnt look like something I did in 3rd grade.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Lindsey 0]

Accidents....there are a lot of those every year. Often kids who pick up an unsecured gun and kill another kid. Seen too many of 'em.

Suicides....lots of folks kill themselves with guns, obviously.

I don't see where either of these is a stretch at all in terms of what might happen with your unsecured gun. My dad keeps a pistol in the drawer of his nightstand. My son and his cousins know the pistol is there. To me that's just scary. I've tried to teach Jay to leave it alone, and now he's old enough to understand. But when he was 6 was he old enough? Who knows.

Yep. Guns should be *reasonably* secured, imho.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[kallend 2,113]

Quote

Quote

What number do YOU think it is, then? Homicides + suicides + accidents?

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/...r.fcgi?artid=1071518

Ignorance is bliss, eh Rookie?

I dont know oh great one. So now you go from my gun committing murder if stolen from my home to my gun now being responsible for suicide and accidents? You are stretching my man! Anything else you want to throw at me. Next time show me a graph that doesnt look like something I did in 3rd grade.

Dead from a gunshot wound is still dead.

More guns do NOT save lives. The data are absolutely clear on that.

Current firearm injury research, involving three large American cities, concludes that a handgun in your home is 22 times more likely to be used to injure or kill a family member or acquaintance than an intruder. Healthlink, Medical College of Wisconsin

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Suicides....lots of folks kill themselves with guns, obviously.

Agree

Quote

I don't see where either of these is a stretch at all in terms of what might happen with your unsecured gun.

With my unsecure gun? Mine are in my home. I dont have kids so whats the problem. My wife is also an avid shooter thanks to me. So I dont see what the problem is.



***Yep. Guns should be *reasonably* secured, imho. ***


I agree! If you have a 10yo running around you need to keep it locked up. But what others are saying is that no matter what happens I am at fault if something bad happens.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Current firearm injury research, involving three large American cities, concludes that a handgun in your home is 22 times more likely to be used to injure or kill a family member or acquaintance than an intruder. Healthlink, Medical College of Wisconsin

ah, a newer attempt at the Kellerman 43:1 ratio. I see now it is sufficient to injury an intruder, but still no credit for when they flee, even though it has the happy ending of no one being hurt.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

My dad keeps a pistol in the drawer of his nightstand. My son and his cousins know the pistol is there. To me that's just scary. I've tried to teach Jay to leave it alone, and now he's old enough to understand. But when he was 6 was he old enough? Who knows.

Yep. Guns should be *reasonably* secured, imho.

Reasonable has a different meaning in a house with children. The laws common to most states on that seem appropriate.

Since I have no children in my household, it's not necessary for me to protect against such a threat.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Dead from a gunshot wound is still dead.

So if it's the intruder coming into my home who give a FUCK! I did what I had to do. Sorry about his bad day. Maybe if you would have been around to rehab him it would not have happened.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Lindsey 0]

But what others are saying is that no matter what happens I am at fault if something bad happens.

I think that IS a stretch, but if a suicidal friend brought her young children over and one or the other ended up dead....well, it's their own *fault* for messing with your gun, but they'd still be dead. Were it my gun I'd probably feel like shit.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

I think that IS a stretch, but if a suicidal friend brought her young children over and one or the other ended up dead....well, it's their own *fault* for messing with your gun, but they'd still be dead. Were it my gun I'd probably feel like shit.

I agree with you. When my nephews come over I take my stuff and lock it up. Pretty simple in my mind. Just in case. But what some others are saying is if my stuff gets stolen I am at fault what happens in the future in the hands of whoever stole them. How does that make sense?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Lindsey 0]

I think that's BS if you're talking legally at fault.

But I also think that a person who is responsible with his/her guns would take into account "what if they were stolen?" I think it only makes good sense to think that way. Hell, it could be someone important to you that gets killed with it down the road...or important to someone else.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

Current firearm injury research, involving three large American cities, concludes that a handgun in your home is 22 times more likely to be used to injure or kill a family member or acquaintance than an intruder. Healthlink, Medical College of Wisconsin

ah, a newer attempt at the Kellerman 43:1 ratio. I see now it is sufficient to injury an intruder, but still no credit for when they flee, even though it has the happy ending of no one being hurt.

BTW, do you have a real citation for this, or just the unattributed claim on Healthlink at http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002281.html ?

I can't find it on google, other than as an unsupported claim. Also see the classic 43:1, and now 18:1. It's great to have so many different versions of the lie to tell!

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

Current firearm injury research, involving three large American cities, concludes that a handgun in your home is 22 times more likely to be used to injure or kill a family member or acquaintance than an intruder. Healthlink, Medical College of Wisconsin

The problem with that statistic???

Guess what they did: They included all the instances when it was the intruder himself who was the one who brought the gun into your home!!

So, suppose you don't own a gun. An armed criminal breaks into your house & kills a family member.

Guess what? That gets counted as one of those 22 times!! After all, when the Intruder entered, you DID have a gun in the home!

Neat how that works, isn't it?

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------