Porter, Texas...shooting in the news

[kallend 2,113]

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Should an employer (if any) of said illegal be considered an accessory to the crime if it could be shown that the employer knew the person's status?

The employer of someone who commits a crime is guilty of nothing.

Oh, but in this case the employer would have enabled the illegal's presence in the first place.
Rather like the accomplice who drives a bank robber to the bank.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,085]

> Why?

Because if you send him back to Mexico, he may hop right back over the fence and commit the same crime again, and again.

[rehmwa 2]

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Should an employer (if any) of said illegal be considered an accessory to the crime if it could be shown that the employer knew the person's status?

The employer of someone who commits a crime is guilty of nothing.

Oh, but in this case the employer would have enabled the illegal's presence in the first place.
Rather like the accomplice who drives a bank robber to the bank.

"enabling" the illegal's presence is not a crime. But it's used to excuse the illegal's criminal act. I think that's a bunch of weak snot bull.

HIRING an illegal is a separate crime. It should be punishable as a separate crime. It should, in no way, mitigate the other, completely separate crime, of the illegal.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[masterrig 1]

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I know in Texas they string up horse thieves, but I thought back-shooting was frowned upon.

That's why you shout the perp's name, wait for him to turn around, then shoot him in the front.

Can't tell the perp's name without a program!

I can think of a few names for them!


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

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...and now it turns out that these two perps ("alleged") were illegal aliens with criminal records. Why were they still in the USA? Why hadn't the local police turned them over to I.C.E. for deportation?

If you can't do the time (forever, in this case) don't do the crime!

Gee-whiz! Criminal illegal alien... open borders... go figure!


Chuck

[rushmc 23]

Please, keep us upupdated on what is happening. What I am hearing from various site and news is encouraging but, you are closer to it so you have better context and truth. Maybe this is resolved but I am hearing no charges?

Thanks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[airtwardo 7]

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...and now it turns out that these two perps ("alleged") were illegal aliens with criminal records. Why were they still in the USA? Why hadn't the local police turned them over to I.C.E. for deportation?

If you can't do the time (forever, in this case) don't do the crime!

WRONG SHOOTING....this one was a single perp.


A local youth.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rushmc 23]

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...and now it turns out that these two perps ("alleged") were illegal aliens with criminal records. Why were they still in the USA? Why hadn't the local police turned them over to I.C.E. for deportation?

If you can't do the time (forever, in this case) don't do the crime!

WRONG SHOOTING....this one was a single perp.


A local youth.

Are you hearing anything about that one?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[airtwardo 7]

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...and now it turns out that these two perps ("alleged") were illegal aliens with criminal records. Why were they still in the USA? Why hadn't the local police turned them over to I.C.E. for deportation?

If you can't do the time (forever, in this case) don't do the crime!

WRONG SHOOTING....this one was a single perp.


A local youth.

Are you hearing anything about that one?

Sounds like no charges will be filed...self defense~

Here's a story comparing the two cases.


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5349444.html



Dec. 5, 2007, 7:14PM
In Horn case, self-defense isn't so clear


By LISA FALKENBERG
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle


There seems to be some confusion here. Joe Horn is not a hero.

The Pasadena homeowner certainly had a chance to be a hero, but he gave up that opportunity as soon as he allowed fear, adrenaline, suburban angst, Old West entitlement or all of the aforementioned to overwhelm his ability to think rationally and consider the consequences of his actions.

Let's imagine, for a moment, that the whole ordeal had turned out differently, that after the 61-year-old computer consultant called 911 to report a burglary next door on that November afternoon, he had followed the dispatcher's advice and stayed safely inside his house.

He still could have provided descriptions of the bad guys and let police know which way they were fleeing. He could have stood guard, loaded shotgun in hand, just in case the burglars preyed on his house next.

The headlines could have portrayed him as vigilant rather than vigilante: "Homeowner helps nab burglars," or "Hometown hero praised for being good neighbor."


Ignored pleadings
Most importantly, Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston, would still be alive.

But Horn didn't stay inside. He ignored the dispatcher's pleadings, grabbed his shotgun and charged out the front door to confront DeJesus and Ortiz, after uttering damning statements like "I'm not going to let them get away with it," and "I'm gonna kill them."

Horn's attorney and longtime friend Tom Lambright argues that his client acted in self-defense, that he thought he saw the alleged burglars lunging at him. Really? If the bad guys were armed only with a crowbar — the only weapon Horn mentions in the 911 call — would they really be lunging at a large man wielding a 12-gauge shotgun?

It will be up to a Harris County grand jury to decide whether Horn's actions were criminal.

Although a Texas law allows citizens to use deadly force to protect neighbors' property, some experts say the statute only applies to nighttime incidents.


Race muddies issue
Meanwhile, Horn has had to flee to an undisclosed location to escape the media attention. And Quanell X and cohorts are staging protests outside his house in an attempt to brand him a racist. Horn's supporters, some armed with a fleet of revving motorcycles, staged a dueling demonstration over the weekend.

I agree with the Horn supporters on one point: the race debate only muddies the issue. There's no reason to believe his actions were racially motivated.

But I am confounded by the rah-rah zeal with which some armchair vigilantes have celebrated Horn's actions. Some readers' comments on the Houston Chronicle Web site suggest the burglars "deserved what they got." Last time I checked, the penalty for burglary didn't include death.

At the demonstration, hundreds had signed the back of signs that seemed to suggest getting trigger-happy with a shotgun is as Texan as bluebonnets or the Lone Star flag.

"We're just citizens standing up for another citizen who chose to protect himself," said one demonstrator.

On some level, I understand the urge of residents overwhelmed and frustrated with crime to hold up Horn as a hero. He's the guy who fought back.

But Horn's isn't a clear case of self-defense. If it were, his name would be as unfamiliar to you as Gerald Lynn Southworth.

Southworth, a 60-year-old Porter property owner, also used his gun to fatally shoot someone he suspected of stealing. But Southworth's story a few days ago didn't grab national headlines. It was buried on Page B3 of this paper. Why? Because it appeared Southworth really was defending his own property.


Contrasting shootings
Southworth had reported thefts from his address two days before and had stayed overnight to guard his property. The suspect was still lying on Southworth's lawn when authorities arrived.

Still, these two men have something in common. When it was all over, neither seemed proud of what he'd done.

Horn was "devastated" and in need of a sedative after the shooting, Lambright said. A statement Horn issued said the killings would "weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life. My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased."

Southworth had to be taken to the hospital because of chest pains after the shooting.

"I am sorry as hell," Southworth told KTRK (Channel 13). "I just wished there had been another way to resolve this."

In Horn's case, there was a better way. He just refused to take it.

lisa.falkenberg@chron.com

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rushmc 23]

Thanks

let us know what the final outcome is please. If no charges are filed we will not hear anything

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[airtwardo 7]

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Thanks

let us know what the final outcome is please. If no charges are filed we will not hear anything

Yeah....that's the way it looks.

A local cop I know told me it would be 'no billed', but they have to go through the procedure.

The bad part is, from what I hear the home owner is now worried about retribution from the friends and or family of the perp....threats have been made etc.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rushmc 23]

The bad part is, from what I hear the home owner is now worried about retribution from the friends and or family of the perp....threats have been made etc.

Surprise surprise

There may be another story coming soon

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[airtwardo 7]

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The bad part is, from what I hear the home owner is now worried about retribution from the friends and or family of the perp....threats have been made etc.

Surprise surprise

There may be another story coming soon


Yup...they might wanna reconsider, he HAS shown he can & WILL shoot!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[justinb138 0]

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Most importantly, Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston, would still be alive.

Yep, alive, and probably out robbing someone else, and possibly killing someone innocent in the process.

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Really? If the bad guys were armed only with a crowbar — the only weapon Horn mentions in the 911 call — would they really be lunging at a large man wielding a 12-gauge shotgun?

If they're dumb enough to break into someone's house in the middle of the afternoon, what makes them smart enough not to go after an old guy with a shotgun?

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But I am confounded by the rah-rah zeal with which some armchair vigilantes have celebrated Horn's actions. Some readers' comments on the Houston Chronicle Web site suggest the burglars "deserved what they got." Last time I checked, the penalty for burglary didn't include death.

Break into someone's house and death may very well be the result (especially in TX), that's a risk you take when committing such a crime. If they're too dumb to realize that....


I hate stories like this.....

[rushmc 23]

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The bad part is, from what I hear the home owner is now worried about retribution from the friends and or family of the perp....threats have been made etc.

Surprise surprise

There may be another story coming soon

Yup...they might wanna reconsider, he HAS shown he can & WILL shoot!

Ya, exactly

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnRich 4]

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If they're dumb enough to break into someone's house in the middle of the afternoon, what makes them smart enough not to go after an old guy with a shotgun?

That's actually the safest time to burgle, because most houses are empty while the owners are away at work. That shows that the burglars are actually thinking about avoiding encountering armed homeowners.

My next door neighbor was just burglarized last month, while I was at home next door, and I never heard or saw anything amiss...

[Richards 0]

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My next door neighbor was just burglarized last month, while I was at home next door, and I never heard or saw anything amiss...

[airtwardo 7]

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My next door neighbor was just burglarized last month, while I was at home next door, and I never heard or saw anything amiss...

Damn that is a frustrating feeling. I woke up once to find out that someone had burgled my place as I slept. That hurt! To think I was there and in theory could have had that one in a million opportunity to catch them in the act and there I was snoring like a bear, fucking clueless to what was happening right downstairs. I still have not gotten over that one!


I actually caught a neighbor IN our house one night 7-8 years back.

He's 'cased' the place...saw us loading luggage in the car and leave. We travel a lot so he figured we'd be gone for at least the weekend.

What he didn't realize was I was dropping the wife & kids off at the airport while I went jumping at SDH.

I came home after dark, put the car in the garage and entered the house through there...watched TV and went to sleep in the master bedroom.

About midnight I woke up to the dogs going crazy, which they do now and then when animals go through the back yard (forest)...my heart skipped a beat or two when I heard a human voice talking to them!

I quietly stepped into the living area and saw that he had all our financial papers, several check books and some valuables all taken from the office, spread out on the table...

He had taken apart the office window and came in through there, he'd also, some time earlier in the day...spread out the dust from his vacuum cleaner on the front outside tile to check if any footprints had come in or out...


When the cop got there...he said I should have shot the guy, LESS PAPERWORK in Texas!

HE got 12 months probation, we moved out of that neighborhood...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Richards 0]

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When the cop got there...he said I should have shot the guy, LESS PAPERWORK in Texas!

HE got 12 months probation, we moved out of that neighborhood...

I bet when you found out about his weak sentence you wished you did shoot him. That is the problem with the weak justice system. You should not have felt the need to leave the neighborhood. The system should have done enough with this guy that you would have felt confident that it would not happen again.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[airtwardo 7]

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When the cop got there...he said I should have shot the guy, LESS PAPERWORK in Texas!

HE got 12 months probation, we moved out of that neighborhood...

I bet when you found out about his weak sentence you wished you did shoot him. That is the problem with the weak justice system. You should not have felt the need to leave the neighborhood. The system should have done enough with this guy that you would have felt confident that it would not happen again.


That ain't the half of it!

We met with the DA prior to sentencing and WE felt like we were the center of the investigation!

They wanted to plead him out and did everything possible to discourage us from going all the way with it.

I guess having nice things is an attractive nuisance and we were at fault...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JohnRich 4]

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I actually caught a neighbor IN our house one night 7-8 years back... I quietly stepped into the living area and saw that he had all our financial papers, several check books and some valuables all taken from the office, spread out on the table... When the cop got there...

Please tell us what happened between you stepping into the living area and the arrival of the cops. Did you have a gun in your hand? Or did you hold him there with your imposing physical presence? What did he say? Did he shit his pants when he saw you?

[airtwardo 7]

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I actually caught a neighbor IN our house one night 7-8 years back... I quietly stepped into the living area and saw that he had all our financial papers, several check books and some valuables all taken from the office, spread out on the table... When the cop got there...

Please tell us what happened between you stepping into the living area and the arrival of the cops.

Did you have a gun in your hand?
~Yes, I was armed...but I didn't point it at him, I 'knew' the guy from the neighborhood, we'd spoken several times. He was unarmed, and wasn't being aggressive.


Or did you hold him there with your imposing physical presence?
~I'd have to say yes to that too, he knew right away he wasn't 'going' anywhere. I told him to take a seat at the table, kept my eyes on him and my distance from him and cleared that immediate area of the house to make sure he was alone.


What did he say?
~I watched him from across the room for about a minute as he went through the stuff, then asked rather loudly, "Can I help you with something?"

He jumped a little but just said "Oh"


Did he shit his pants when he saw you?
~No not really, he kind of went limp, he knew he was screwed...I made HIM call the cops!

He told the officer that came what he'd done...how he got in, and the dust on the front tile thing.


It wasn't really all that intense of a situation (for me) probably because I recognized him.






Edited to add:

The wife (out of town) really freaked out when I called her about it, you know women / kids and the safety thing.

The guy really played it well, got a good mouthpiece that wove quite a tale about depression and mental instability.

...Since he didn't actually remove anything from the house he claimed he was just being curious about us, tried to make the B&E an unlawful trespass.

He had segregated a lot of important documents into a separate pile that he was going to take with him...credit card bills, mortgage statements, check books and bank statements, pay stubs with SSN's, out of date passports, work ID's, kids birth certificates...he was definitely 'curious'.

He'd spent a lot of time in the office, only got the dogs going when he entered the living room, if he'd gone back out the office window I wouldn't have known until the next day.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[masterrig 1]

We met with the DA prior to sentencing and WE felt like we were the center of the investigation!

Which reminds me of something similar. A few years ago, a complete (brand new) parachute, harness-container system was stolen from our DZ, late one night. There were some jumpers who stayed the night to 'sleep it off'. Noone heard or saw anything. Some time later, I recieved a package at my front door... no big deal! I noticed that 'mailboxes and More', had been covered with magic marker but, when held at the right angle, I could make out where it was shipped from. inside the box, was the stolen rig. My wife, who was a DA investigator at the time and I took it to the police in the town where the report had been filed. Of all the people at the DZ... I was selected to take a polygraph! We proved who stole it and when the owner found out who it was... dropped the charges.


Chuck


Chuck

[kallend 2,113]

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If they're dumb enough to break into someone's house in the middle of the afternoon, what makes them smart enough not to go after an old guy with a shotgun?

That's actually the safest time to burgle, because most houses are empty while the owners are away at work. That shows that the burglars are actually thinking about avoiding encountering armed homeowners.

My next door neighbor was just burglarized last month, while I was at home next door, and I never heard or saw anything amiss...

I wonder why TX has 50% more burglaries (per cap.)than IL (FBI UCR 2006) if the thieves are so afraid of being shot in TX. You'd think they'd all come up here.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airtwardo 7]

Nutin' IN Illinois worth stealing!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~