I just drove past my local Home Depot

[normiss 873]

if we gave American car companies the same benefits that have attracted the foreign manufacturers - such as hugh tax breaks from local communities for a new factory, low interest bonds and loans to build, the ability to ship profits out of the country, ability to hire part time workers without benefits, contract employees... maybe they too would have a better shot at the business....
the incentives foreign car companies have add to the unfair playing field....unions don't do it aloone.

[freethefly 6]

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The automotive workers unions have made it unprofitable for car companies to build cars in the US. Indeed, the only car companies building cars in the US and doing well are companies like Toyota who build plants in Kentucky and (the important part) hire non-union workers.

Blaming the folks on the factory floor? How about blaming the management at the top for bad decisions and crappy designs. Blame them for pushing out overpriced gas guzzling monster size trucks and SUV's that didn't sell. Toyota went the other route and designed quality vehicles that did sell. The fault for a failing US auto industry is the fault of those at the top. Go ahead and blindly blame the guy on the factory floor who is busting his ass while the suits at the top pull in the bigger dollars. But, you being a suit yourself, I guess it is beyond your ability to see that the working stiff is also human and has to pay the same bills that you do. It's not the unions fault that the top excutives are not worth their salt. Cut the pay at the top to what the factory worker makes. Fair is fair.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Twice I have seen raids at Westpark and 59! And you should see the rats run like hell!!!!!!!!

Cool. But... but... if they're not illegal, as the liberals here imply, then why would they run?

Well, I'm liberal.........and they run like hell because they are ALL illegal! My only compliant is that INS did such a poor job of surrounding them that many got away!

Yea, I know....liberal people are supposed to love illegals, hate guns and dream of giving Hilary Clinton head all day and night! That is not what Truman would do!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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This thread is a classic example of the barely, thinly veiled racism that I'm talking about underlying so much of the commentary on this subject.

Why do you guys even try to be remotely coy? Why not just call them "fucking spics" like you really mean? You know you want to. Say it and be done with it already. You're beginning to bore us.

You are way off..............these people are trespassing, do little to contribute to our society, commit many, many crimes and get away with it and then when they go home to spend what they made here. And we are suckers to allow it.....but some people are suckers to think any different.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[masterrig 1]

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This thread is a classic example of the barely, thinly veiled racism that I'm talking about underlying so much of the commentary on this subject.

Why do you guys even try to be remotely coy? Why not just call them "fucking spics" like you really mean? You know you want to. Say it and be done with it already. You're beginning to bore us.

You are way off..............these people are trespassing, do little to contribute to our society, commit many, many crimes and get away with it and then when they go home to spend what they made here. And we are suckers to allow it.....but some people are suckers to think any different.

The next time they march in 'our' streets, the Border Patrol should gather them all up and sort-out the legals. They missed a good opportunity, here awhile back!


Chuck

[nathaniel 0]

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these people are trespassing, do little to contribute to our society, commit many, many crimes and get away with it and then when they go home to spend what they made here

Ignorance is seductive, there's more myth than truth in your remarks.

Trespassing on property is unrelated to immigration; the labor market is not fixed--immigrants (yes illegal ones too) create jobs, boost wages and generally contributes to the economy; immigrants commit as many or fewer crimes than locals; money is not public property, it circulates.

Just say you don't like immigrants, that's more direct.

Here's a deal, if you quit trotting out the veiled (racist) blarney, we'll stop calling you on it.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[masterrig 1]

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these people are trespassing, do little to contribute to our society, commit many, many crimes and get away with it and then when they go home to spend what they made here

Ignorance is seductive, there's more myth than truth in your remarks.

Trespassing on property is unrelated to immigration; the labor market is not fixed--immigrants (yes illegal ones too) create jobs, boost wages and generally contributes to the economy; immigrants commit as many or fewer crimes than locals; money is not public property, it circulates.

Just say you don't like immigrants, that's more direct.

Here's a deal, if you quit trotting out the veiled (racist) blarney, we'll stop calling you on it.

...and if, you'd quit putting 'illegals' with 'legal' immigrants under one blanket, we'd quit bitchin'! There is quite a difference between the two!


Chuck

[78RATS 0]

not to mention this shit

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[n23x 0]

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I have more respect for the man you mentioned because, as tough as it is, he is going through the legal process to obtain a 'Green Card'. I applaud him! The man I mentioned, could've done the same thing. As for the 'process', all I can say is, the wheels of government turn slowly but on the other hand, we are a nation of instant gratification. I respect the man you mentioned for his patience as well as all those who have or are going through the process... correctly

Once again, if the process is broke...

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[nathaniel 0]

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quit putting 'illegals' with 'legal' immigrants under one blanket, we'd quit bitchin'! There is quite a difference between the two!

Do go on.

edit: or is this another euphemism...iow the difference is that proportionately more illegal immigrants are Mexican...

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[kallend 2,118]

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I know an expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering who is now in his 4th year of waiting for his green card. How fucked-up is that?

Complain to your congressmen. That law is designed to keep him from taking a job away from an American expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering. Apparently there must be an excess of those around compared to the number needed, otherwise your acquaintance wouldn't have any trouble proving that his skills are both unique and necessary, which would qualify him for permanent status.

Oh, he's already proved his qualifications to the govt.'s satisfaction. Just waiting for the wheel to turn.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[masterrig 1]

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I have more respect for the man you mentioned because, as tough as it is, he is going through the legal process to obtain a 'Green Card'. I applaud him! The man I mentioned, could've done the same thing. As for the 'process', all I can say is, the wheels of government turn slowly but on the other hand, we are a nation of instant gratification. I respect the man you mentioned for his patience as well as all those who have or are going through the process... correctly

Once again, if the process is broke...

.jim

O.K. Let me ask this; Just how, would you fix it?


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

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I know an expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering who is now in his 4th year of waiting for his green card. How fucked-up is that?

Complain to your congressmen. That law is designed to keep him from taking a job away from an American expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering. Apparently there must be an excess of those around compared to the number needed, otherwise your acquaintance wouldn't have any trouble proving that his skills are both unique and necessary, which would qualify him for permanent status.

Oh, he's already proved his qualifications to the govt.'s satisfaction. Just waiting for the wheel to turn.

He'll get it! Good things come to those who wait. I give him a lot of credit for going about it the right way.


Chuck

[Andy9o8 2]

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And it's typical of the pro-illegal immigrant folks

John, you were wrong when you labeled me an anti-gunner, and you're wrong in (impliedly) calling me this, too.

And I've made it clear, in several threads (like this one, for example), that my objection is not to the position on immigration, it's to some people using the debate as convenient cover to give voice to thinly-veiled racist rhetoric...but with "just enough" plausible deniability.

Please don't cast my words in a light other than what they are, in order to demonize them.

[billvon 3,090]

>Do you believe that you should be compensated fairly for your time and
>skill?

Yep! And if I thought I wasn't, I'd quit and get a better job.

> You probably do and so does the man or woman who is busting their ass
> in all types of weather to build the homes we live in.

Agreed 100%.

>You suit and ties see unions as the enemy when unions work to see
> that the employee is compensated fairly for their time.

I haven't worn a suit or a tie for about 10 years now. (Well, there was that one wedding.) But I think everyone should be compensated fairly for their work. Unions are one way to make sure that does NOT happen.

>That compensation flows right back into the community. The more I
>make the more I spend.

And if everyone makes a lot, inflation goes through the roof and no one can afford anything (and certainly no one tries to save money!)

If everyone makes too little, you end up in a depression as consumer spending goes down.

Best, therefore, to let the market regulate salaries (and prices) and not try to force your salary higher by participating in coercive practices like strikes.

>You union busters would rather sit back and watch the people who build
>the buildings you use starve.

Nope. I'd rather have them be paid a fair wage for their work rather than a union wage for leaning on a shovel.

>You folks who believe that the union turns a blind eye to shoddy work
>have never worked a union jobsite.

Oh, believe me, we have! We've dealt with the teamsters, mechanics and electricians unions. We try to find out ahead of time if we'll be dealing with a union for a big demo or installation - because we know it's going to take four times as long.

"You can't turn that on!"

"Dude, I designed it. What do you mean I can't turn it on?"

"Gotta wait for the union electrician! Union rules, ya know."

I'm sure that union electrician got paid big bucks to flip that switch from the OFF position to the ON position. That's the sort of highly skilled labor you see in unions nowadays.

>Hell, if the carpenter isn't worth what he makes then all the suits out
>there are worth far less as there is no danger in pushing a button.

Tell that to a union electrician and you'll have them picketing your office. They'll lecture you on how you're so smug and clueless and have NO IDEA how hard they work, and have no idea how important those buttons are. (I've heard the lecture.)

>Try working where things are moving. Try working above the ground up
>on ladders and planks slamming nails. Try it in freezing weather or
>extreme heat. Try being at the top of a 40 while the winds are
>slamming you.

Tell ya what -

You try rebooting a cPCI based satellite system in the ebay of an MD-80 that's bouncing through serious turbulence, in an area so narrow you can't turn around.

You try aligning an antenna while hanging from a harness in 25mph winds - where the wind forces on the antenna are stronger than your arms.

You try fixing a battery system for a cell site in Baker, California when it's 112F out. And there's no shade. And when you open the battery compartment, the batteries get even hotter and start to outgas because the charger wasn't designed for that temperature range.

Or perhaps you could spend your day wading through small ponds on the top of the New Orleans convention center, doing electrical work while your pants are soaking wet.

And you know what? I survived all those things, and did pretty well. And - and here's the amazing and unbelievable part - I'm not in a union!

>So cozy to detest what you do not know, eh Bill?

Righteous indignation only works when you're - you know - right.

[airtwardo 7]

I have to wonder if a lot of the union argument isn't a hold over from the cradle to grave employment mindset of the 50's & 60's...can't fire ME...been here to long!

I agree with your points Bill about unions actually discouraging a competitive marketplace...I'm reminded of the old union joke about doing a job, Fast-Cheap-Right...pick any two...well that's not really working too well in the slimmed down JIT world the workplace is/has become.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[masterrig 1]

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I have to wonder if a lot of the union argument isn't a hold over from the cradle to grave employment mindset of the 50's & 60's...can't fire ME...been here to long!

I agree with your points Bill about unions actually discouraging a competitive marketplace...I'm reminded of the old union joke about doing a job, Fast-Cheap-Right...pick any two...well that's not really working too well in the slimmed down JIT world the workplace is/has become.

I agree, the unions have out-lived their usefulness. It's a whole new ballgame, now.


Chuck

[n23x 0]

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Just how, would you fix it?

Go back to 3rd grade english class to learn the rules of punctuation?

I am not a political scientist, so I'm not entirely sure... However, there are a couple of continual issues that are obviously a big hinder in PROMOTING people to become documented citizens.

a.) Speed/rate of acceptance. We need to develop a quick, simple method for entrance into the US, documentation, and issuance of something similar to a work visa. People come over here illegally because, as Kalland has pointed out before, the time to be issued documentation is slow as shit, and it doesn't need to be like that.

And for people who'll say, "the government needs time to inspect each person as a terrorist threat," the answer is, no, they don't. Our border security is a JOKE, and always will be. If I was a terrorist and I really wanted to get into the US, I'd go to canada, and the row a goddamn boat across the lake to the US. So now do we:
-1.) Uphold a system that rewards those that illegally enter.
-2.) Promote a system that quickly documents ALL coming in the US?

b.) Extend said visa to all current unregistered immigrants in the US.

From these new, EFFECTIVE work visas, a time duration could be set to allow conversion to US citizen. This should also be an easy and quick process. Now here's the neat thing: you can tax all the people now, so they can support all public services (few of which they take advantage of during their illegal status, despite what everybody seems to parrot).

c.) AGGRESSIVELY enforce punishments for employers who hired/contracted undocumented immigrants. Now this is critical. We need to stop blowing our money on border patrol, which is flat out retarded, and spend it on something that CAN be better regulated. And that is businesses.

Promoting a system of acceptance, NOT EXCLUSION, has always done, and will do again, the best for the USA.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[livendive 8]

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Wasn't ever a surprise to se 20 or more mexicans doing the job. These guys would work for less than $50.00 a square while the rate was near $200.00 a square. These people are stealing what should had been ours.

Who do you think was purchasing the building? I'm guessing it was an American. The $150/square difference was THEIR money, not your's. What makes you think you were entitled to it?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Tornolf 0]

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What are you pulling down a year, Bill. More than 50 grand? Are you worth it? You probably believe you are worth far more. Do you believe that you should be compensated fairly for your time and skill? You probably do and so does the man or woman who is busting their ass in all types of weather to build the homes we live in. You union busters are part of the problem. You suit and ties see unions as the enemy when unions work to see that the employee is compensated fairly for their time. That compensation flows right back into the community. The more I make the more I spend. If the employee is only making pennies, that hurts the economy. It hurts the local resturuants. It hurts the local stores. It hurts the community because there is less tax flowing into the city coffer.
You union busters would rather sit back and watch the people who build the buildings you use starve.
I'm not in the unions these days but, if I were to go back into the trades, damn right, union all the way.
My time and skill is worth every dollar.
You folks who believe that the union turns a blind eye to shoddy work have never worked a union jobsite. Shoddy work will get you blackballed. Good luck finding work on a good paying site. They'll have your name. Maybe the illegals will take you.
Hell, if the carpenter isn't worth what he makes then all the suits out there are worth far less as there is no danger in pushing a button. Try working where things are moving. Try working above the ground up on ladders and planks slamming nails. Try it in freezing weather or extreme heat. Try being at the top of a 40 while the winds are slamming you.
So cozy to detest what you do not know, eh Bill?

Why such anger against this strawman union buster?

People are not created equal. When it comes down to it, more people can work well in construction than in rocket science. Therefore, rocket scientists make more than construction workers. It takes over 8 years of post high school schooling and well over a hundred thousand dollars (usually in loans) to become a doctor or lawyer. Most people are not intelligent enough to become a doctor or lawyer. Therefore, doctors and lawyers command a higher salary than most professions.

I have worked as a carpenter and an electrician before. The work was far easier, at least in my experience, to become proficient than it was to learn fluid mechanics, thermodynamics, circuit design, or elementary number theory - which I actually use fairly often. America is supposed to be about capitalism and the free market, right? Since the relative supply of people capable of being a "suit and tie" compared to demand is lower than the relative supply of people capable of being an union carpenter, union electrician, or union factory worker compared to demand, the people in the former group will make more money.

A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world.
-TJ

[masterrig 1]

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Just how, would you fix it?

Go back to 3rd grade english class to learn the rules of punctuation?

I am not a political scientist, so I'm not entirely sure... However, there are a couple of continual issues that are obviously a big hinder in PROMOTING people to become documented citizens.

a.) Speed/rate of acceptance. We need to develop a quick, simple method for entrance into the US, documentation, and issuance of something similar to a work visa. People come over here illegally because, as Kalland has pointed out before, the time to be issued documentation is slow as shit, and it doesn't need to be like that.

And for people who'll say, "the government needs time to inspect each person as a terrorist threat," the answer is, no, they don't. Our border security is a JOKE, and always will be. If I was a terrorist and I really wanted to get into the US, I'd go to canada, and the row a goddamn boat across the lake to the US. So now do we:
-1.) Uphold a system that rewards those that illegally enter.
-2.) Promote a system that quickly documents ALL coming in the US?

b.) Extend said visa to all current unregistered immigrants in the US.

From these new, EFFECTIVE work visas, a time duration could be set to allow conversion to US citizen. This should also be an easy and quick process. Now here's the neat thing: you can tax all the people now, so they can support all public services (few of which they take advantage of during their illegal status, despite what everybody seems to parrot).

c.) AGGRESSIVELY enforce punishments for employers who hired/contracted undocumented immigrants. Now this is critical. We need to stop blowing our money on border patrol, which is flat out retarded, and spend it on something that CAN be better regulated. And that is businesses.

Promoting a system of acceptance, NOT EXCLUSION, has always done, and will do again, the best for the USA.

.jim

I'll ignore your smart-assed, arrogant statement.

Basically, what you are saying is... let 'em all in. Amnesty. Brrrrraaap... wrong answer! How do you propose to secure our borders, both Northern and Southern from just anyone entering? Doing away with the Border Patrol is ridiculous. Maybe, increasing their numbers, which I whole-heartedly support. About the only idea of yours that makes any sense is, fining the hell out of businesses who employ illegals.



Chuck

[Andy9o8 2]

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Most people are not intelligent enough to become a doctor or lawyer.

Actually, to make a very narrow point, I believe that most average, ordinary people are born with sufficient raw intelligence to absorb the education and practical training needed to become reasonably capable doctors or lawyers, given enough time and opportunity. But...that's not the point of the thread.

[Tornolf 0]

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Most people are not intelligent enough to become a doctor or lawyer.

Actually, to make a very narrow point, I believe that most average, ordinary people are born with sufficient raw intelligence to absorb the education and practical training needed to become reasonably capable doctors or lawyers, given enough time and opportunity. But...that's not the point of the thread.

Sorry. Replace intelligent with "driven" and add "skilled" in front of "doctor or lawyer".

I've found in engineering that there are a lot of people who are driven and dedicated, but just aren't very smart. They'll be ok engineers, but not skilled or talented ones.

A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world.
-TJ

[n23x 0]

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How do you propose to secure our borders, both Northern and Southern? Doing away with the Border Patrol is ridiculous.

No, what is rediculous is the thought that we can have better than low to intermediate success with border security. We can't.

You want to talk about a real security risk to the US? Port security.



I'm not proposing elimination of border security either, we just don't need to spend more money on it.

Rather, we should take some of that funding and infrastructure WASTED on securing something that can never be fully secure, and spend it on something that will provide incoming tax dollars to the US. (As well as improved data about the people coming inside the US).

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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these people are trespassing, do little to contribute to our society, commit many, many crimes and get away with it and then when they go home to spend what they made here

Ignorance is seductive, there's more myth than truth in your remarks.

Trespassing on property is unrelated to immigration; the labor market is not fixed--immigrants (yes illegal ones too) create jobs, boost wages and generally contributes to the economy; immigrants commit as many or fewer crimes than locals; money is not public property, it circulates.

Just say you don't like immigrants, that's more direct.

Here's a deal, if you quit trotting out the veiled (racist) blarney, we'll stop calling you on it.

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You can call me anything you like Honey! I can even speak more suductively than that if you like.

I think I know what I am talking about and I think you know what you are trying to deny. And legal immigrants are completely different than illegals who cross the border to work as day laborers. I am very well versed in what skilled legal immigrant labor can do for this country. Unfortunately illegals bring crime and other bad habits to our land and it is simply not worth the cost of cheap day labor. I just happen to live in an area that is about 80% "immigrants" in my sense of the term and I am never amazed by the things I witness.

So, if you would like a 15 year old prostitute from somewhere in Central America who has been smuggled across the border to add to our economy, come on over, you can pay the gang pimp and you can have good time!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"