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DannHuff

Taking Science on Faith

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Nice history lesson. I was referring to the conversion of Constantine, the Roman Emperor ( 306-337CE), in 312 and his subsequent declaration of Christianity as the official faith of the Roman Empire.



Official. OK, I'll buy that.

BTW, not being condescending. Just think it is good to share, and guessing that not everyone knows.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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To know requires proof
To believe requires evidence
To have faith requires neither.
If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again

I like the variant on this where the last line goes something like:

For good people to really fuck up requires religion.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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Nice history lesson. I was referring to the conversion of Constantine, the Roman Emperor ( 306-337CE), in 312 and his subsequent declaration of Christianity as the official faith of the Roman Empire.



Official. OK, I'll buy that.

BTW, not being condescending. Just think it is good to share, and guessing that not everyone knows.



Didn't Constantine "convert" merely as part of his power stuggle with the Maxentians and Maximinus? I don't think there's any evidence that he was actually a believer in anything except his own political interests.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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]either/or debates between religion and atheism obscure the truly interesting interplay between faith and other forms of knowledge that is unfolding today.



Faith and other forms of knowledge?! How is faith a form of knowledge? It's not even a best guess.


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interplay between Hindu spirituality and the insights of physics in his life and thought.



The interplay between theoretical physics and Hindu spirituality exists solely in the mind of the individual. I think trying to hook physics and spirituality together like this is a basically just a barely amusing conicidence. It's like saying astrology and astronomy are flip sides of the same coin. Erm... no, not even close.

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Thanks for the reply. As for me, the answer remains the same. I have satisfied in my own mind and heart where the truth is. Along the journey I have looked at other faiths but clearly not every faith under the sun. But you get to a point where you are faced with a decision. Christ said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So at this point one needs to make a choice as in effect the statement excludes other religions as the way to God.

It only excludes other religions if you've prejudged those other religions and already come to the conclusion that Christianity is correct. I daresay any number of other faiths have clauses about their monopoly on truth...

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--That can be said of any religion. How does it affect whether Christianity is true?



For the ones who can understand their spiritual need, and experience the fulfillment of the message of Christ; they have no doubt of the truthfulness of Christianity.

.



That can be said of any religion. How does it affect whether Christianity is true?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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interplay between Hindu spirituality and the insights of physics in his life and thought.



The interplay between theoretical physics and Hindu spirituality exists solely in the mind of the individual. I think trying to hook physics and spirituality together like this is a basically just a barely amusing conicidence. It's like saying astrology and astronomy are flip sides of the same coin. Erm... no, not even close.

:)
The portion of your response that I bolded above is largely the point of Raman's message. Concur w/your assertion on an astrology-astronomy analogy; that is, however, a straw man in this context.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

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The interplay between theoretical physics and Hindu spirituality exists solely in the mind of the individual. I think trying to hook physics and spirituality together like this is a basically just a barely amusing conicidence. It's like saying astrology and astronomy are flip sides of the same coin. Erm... no, not even close.



I think some of the similarities are fairly obvious (and quite interesting). However, it is important to note that the similarities involve the explanations from Physics, not the theories (aka mathematical models) from Physics. To quote Fritjof Capra, "the map is not the territory."
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I think some of the similarities are fairly obvious (and quite interesting). However, it is important to note that the similarities involve the explanations from Physics, not the theories (aka mathematical models) from Physics. To quote Fritjof Capra, "the map is not the territory."




I think that in order to extract any similarity you need to take such a tortuous understanding of the physics that any comparison is totally invalid.

It's like saying this tiny bit of a contour map of Switzerland is similar to SpongeBob SquarePants. You have to get down really low and squint and even then... whoopdeefookindoo:|

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I think that in order to extract any similarity you need to take such a tortuous understanding of the physics that any comparison is totally invalid.



I disagree completely. Many of the similarities are fairly obvious.

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It's like saying this tiny bit of a contour map of Switzerland is similar to SpongeBob SquarePants. You have to get down really low and squint and even then... whoopdeefookindoo:|



It's nothing like saying that. :S
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Please feel free to give examples of these obvious similarities.



The duality concept in religion, most often of the masculine and feminine energies, in comparison to the dual nature (particle/wave) of light is but one obvious example.

Sorry, off the top of my head I can't remember the Hindu name for the duality concept, but Taoism refers to it as yin and yang.
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What, that's it?



If you want more read a book by a theoretical physicist on the subject.

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I stand by my SpongeBob analogy.



And it will be just as non-applicable as before.

Why is it so hard to imagine that modern descriptions of the world around us might share similarities to ancient descriptions of the world around us? Does the post renaissance west have some sort of corner on knowledge and observation?
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You can imagine all kinds of similiaritys, but that's all they are, imagined.



Everything in the world is imagined. Do you think a rock is really solid? Do you think you see things as they actually are? Do you really believe that it is possible to experience now? When are our imaginings reality and when are they not? All we have are our explanations, and they serve us no better (or worse) than they did the prisoners in Plato's cave.
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Why is it so hard to imagine that modern descriptions of the world around us might share similarities to ancient descriptions of the world around us?



In your example, the 'similarities' are like a sheep is similar to a cloud - both look white and fluffy. Beyond that they're really not.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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In your example, the 'similarities' are like a sheep is similar to a cloud - both look white and fluffy. Beyond that they're really not.



You will notice that I previously emphasized that it is scientific explanations, and not theories, that share similarities with eastern religions.
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Do you think a rock is really solid?



Come on down to Texas and let me throw a rock at you. Remeber it's only imagined solid. BTW that pain is only in your imagination.

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Do you think you see things as they actually are?



Let me shine a big bright light in your eyes. Don't worry you aren't really seeing it your imagining it, so it really doesn't hurt, your imagining the pain.

This philosophy is fun. Why don't you come on over so I can hit you over the head with an imagined baseball bat.

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If you want more read a book by a theoretical physicist on the subject.



<-- theoretical physicist

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Why is it so hard to imagine that modern descriptions of the world around us might share similarities to ancient descriptions of the world around us? Does the post renaissance west have some sort of corner on knowledge and observation?



It's not hard to imagine, it's hard to take seriously. I mean Italy is similar to a boot. Except it's not. The shape of Italy on a map is a bit boot shaped but Italy itself is nothing like a boot. Thinking of Italy it terms of boots will get you precisely nowhere.

I bet you'll hate that analogy too.

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Do you think a rock is really solid?



Come on down to Texas and let me throw a rock at you. Remeber it's only imagined solid. BTW that pain is only in your imagination.

Quote

Do you think you see things as they actually are?



Let me shine a big bright light in your eyes. Don't worry you aren't really seeing it your imagining it, so it really doesn't hurt, your imagining the pain.

This philosophy is fun. Why don't you come on over so I can hit you over the head with an imagined baseball bat.


There's nothing like mindless banter in absence of a valid point. :S
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I think your imagined similaritys are pretty worthless and would be different for each person imagining the similaritys. Such subjective observations are pretty useless. So what if you find similaritys between religion and whatever. How is that useful for anything? Religion is what people imagined to create a structured world around them and to explain what they didn't understand.

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In your example, the 'similarities' are like a sheep is similar to a cloud - both look white and fluffy. Beyond that they're really not.



You will notice that I previously emphasized that it is scientific explanations, and not theories, that share similarities with eastern religions.



And you will notice that I am suggesting that they are vague, superficial, ultimately meaningless similarities.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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>Let me shine a big bright light in your eyes. Don't worry you aren't really
>seeing it your imagining it, so it really doesn't hurt, your imagining the
>pain.

Let me shine an IR laser in your eyes. You won't see anything (even afterwards!) and it won't hurt, so don't worry; it can't possibly do any harm.

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