skypapa 0 #1 November 20, 2007 We all know the Microsofts and the IBM's of the world probably cut some corners and stepped on some toes to get to where they are today. Is this world we live in better off because organizations such as these took the steps to get to where they are? Haven't we all benefited in one way, shape, or form because of these practices? Isn't this just part of natural evolution? Their marketing efforts and business practices most likely consisted of numerous lies and deception and probably hurt some organizations along the way. But arent we all better off because of it? (Minus a few casualties along the way) In the world of corporate america is it ok to accept the dog eat dog mentality and the lies that go along with it or should these types of practices be banished from the business world altogether? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #2 November 20, 2007 In the corporate world, I'd understand, and there are laws that govern those that get out of line. But not in our sport. It is too small and too personal to have that bullshit flying around. Skyride can go to hell."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypapa 0 #3 November 20, 2007 QuoteIn the corporate world, I'd understand, and there are laws that govern those that get out of line. But not in our sport. It is too small and too personal to have that bullshit flying around. Skyride can go to hell. The second one dollar exchanges hands between two individuals in payment for an agreed upon service it is no longer a sport, it is a business. BTW - You chose to bring skyride into this thread not me. Mods - Please do not delete this thread, I did not ask for skyride to be discussed. I would prefer to keep skyride out of this thread if possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #4 November 20, 2007 >Is this world we live in better off because organizations such as these >took the steps to get to where they are? Nope. >Haven't we all benefited in one way, shape, or form because of these >practices? We would have benefited just as much if Windows had been replaced by Linux, or Imsai replaced IBM. On the other hand, we'd all be better off had companies like Enron not been as fradulent as they were. >Isn't this just part of natural evolution? Evolution requires lots of death, so it's not such a good model for businesses to follow. >In the world of corporate america is it ok to accept the dog eat dog >mentality and the lies that go along with it or should these types of >practices be banished from the business world altogether? Whether you accept it or not depends on your morality. I don't like it so I tend not to support companies that are particularly odious. It would be nice to "banish" bad behavior but that is no more likely than being able to "banish" rudeness, bad breath or flatulence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #5 November 20, 2007 Were there any specific marketing practices that you were referring to or are we just talking about aggressive or questionably legal tactics in general? IMO, I don't think we're better off because singular and powerful interests can game the market to their advantage. The best example I can think of is Microsoft. If their marketing practices had been fair then they wouldn't be as dominant in the industry. That means that they probably would have been forced to release an operating system that works well and is secure by this point. Also, guerrilla marketing by industry through their lobbyists and their disproportionate influence in Washington lawmaking give us things like weak mileage standards for automobiles and prescription drug plans that insure that citizens pay the highest prices possible for their prescriptions. $0.02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #6 November 20, 2007 Depends - does Microsoft send customers to stores that are 2-3 states away from where they live, when there's stores 5 miles away? Fraud is fraud.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #7 November 20, 2007 Quote Quote BTW - You chose to bring skyride into this thread not me. Mods - Please do not delete this thread, I did not ask for skyride to be discussed. I would prefer to keep skyride out of this thread if possible. I mentioned skyride because I know exactly what you were referring to. Get it out in the open already. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypapa 0 #8 November 20, 2007 QuoteDepends - does Microsoft send customers to stores that are 2-3 states away from where they live, when there's stores 5 miles away? Fraud is fraud. Sorry. Try again. That is not fraud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,647 #9 November 20, 2007 QuoteIs this world we live in better off because organizations such as these took the steps to get to where they are? Is it? QuoteIsn't this just part of natural evolution? Is it? QuoteBut arent we all better off because of it? Are we? QuoteIn the world of corporate america is it ok to accept the dog eat dog mentality and the lies that go along with it or should these types of practices be banished from the business world altogether? Should they? So what do you think? How about dropping the insinuations and actually stating what you think. Do you think we're better off with Microsoft's unfair monopolising? If so, why? What benefit did we get?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #10 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteDepends - does Microsoft send customers to stores that are 2-3 states away from where they live, when there's stores 5 miles away? Fraud is fraud. Sorry. Try again. That is not fraud. Please give some examples, then.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #11 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteDepends - does Microsoft send customers to stores that are 2-3 states away from where they live, when there's stores 5 miles away? Fraud is fraud. Sorry. Try again. That is not fraud. Utah State Law: 1. A person is guilty of deceptive business practices if, in the course of engaging in a business, occupation or profession, he intentionally: D. Sells, offers or exposes for sale any commodity which is adulterated or mislabelled; [1975, c. 499, § 1 (new).] G. Makes or causes to be made a false statement of material fact in any advertisement addressed to the public or to a substantial number of persons, in connection with the promotion of his business, occupation or profession or to increase the consumption of specified property or service; [1975, c. 499, § 1 (new).] B. "Mislabeled" means having a label or trademark varying from the standard of truth and disclosure in labeling prescribed by statute or lawfully promulgated administrative regulation, or if none, as set by established commercial usage. "Mislabeled" includes but is not limited to counterfeiting or the unauthorized reproducing of a trademark. [1999, c. 767, §1 (amd).] Skyride is guilty (IMO) of all of the above, and apparently the State of Utah agrees, as does the State of Georgia, or at least they're investigating to determine whether they're guilty or not. A sad aspect of all of this, if you have to defend a practice, it generally is fraudulent, or at the least, ethically flawed. Either way...one thing I wish is that the Skyride supporters would have the courage to post their real names, so I know who to never do business with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 43 #12 November 20, 2007 Quote...I did not ask for skyride to be discussed... You sound so innocent, but somehow I don't believe you. I think that this is exactly what you were looking for. I believe that you were baiting people with this thread and knew that it was going to turn this way. Your history of posting supports my theory: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=skypapa&search_type=AND&search_fields=u&search_time=&search_user_username=&sb=post_time&mh=25"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,219 #13 November 20, 2007 QuoteWe all know the Microsofts and the IBM's of the world probably cut some corners and stepped on some toes to get to where they are today. Is this world we live in better off because organizations such as these took the steps to get to where they are? Haven't we all benefited in one way, shape, or form because of these practices? Isn't this just part of natural evolution? Their marketing efforts and business practices most likely consisted of numerous lies and deception and probably hurt some organizations along the way. But arent we all better off because of it? (Minus a few casualties along the way) In the world of corporate america is it ok to accept the dog eat dog mentality and the lies that go along with it or should these types of practices be banished from the business world altogether? No. unethical behavior is unethical. Lies are lies. Theft of intellectual property is theft. Deception is deception. ALL ARE UNACCEPTABLE.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypapa 0 #14 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteWe all know the Microsofts and the IBM's of the world probably cut some corners and stepped on some toes to get to where they are today. Is this world we live in better off because organizations such as these took the steps to get to where they are? Haven't we all benefited in one way, shape, or form because of these practices? Isn't this just part of natural evolution? Their marketing efforts and business practices most likely consisted of numerous lies and deception and probably hurt some organizations along the way. But arent we all better off because of it? (Minus a few casualties along the way) In the world of corporate america is it ok to accept the dog eat dog mentality and the lies that go along with it or should these types of practices be banished from the business world altogether? No. unethical behavior is unethical. Lies are lies. Theft of intellectual property is theft. Deception is deception. ALL ARE UNACCEPTABLE. All are unacceptable yet all continue to thrive. Business as we know it today would not be where it is without unethical values and deceptive practices. Be it right or wrong. It is what it is. We as a society have turned a blind eye and have made a conscious decision to accept these practices as long as we have the ability to benefit from them. There is always two sides to every story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,219 #15 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteWe all know the Microsofts and the IBM's of the world probably cut some corners and stepped on some toes to get to where they are today. Is this world we live in better off because organizations such as these took the steps to get to where they are? Haven't we all benefited in one way, shape, or form because of these practices? Isn't this just part of natural evolution? Their marketing efforts and business practices most likely consisted of numerous lies and deception and probably hurt some organizations along the way. But arent we all better off because of it? (Minus a few casualties along the way) In the world of corporate america is it ok to accept the dog eat dog mentality and the lies that go along with it or should these types of practices be banished from the business world altogether? No. unethical behavior is unethical. Lies are lies. Theft of intellectual property is theft. Deception is deception. ALL ARE UNACCEPTABLE. All are unacceptable yet all continue to thrive. Business as we know it today would not be where it is without unethical values and deceptive practices. Be it right or wrong. It is what it is. We as a society have turned a blind eye and have made a conscious decision to accept these practices as long as we have the ability to benefit from them. There is always two sides to every story. Bank robbery and murder thrive too. We still don't condone them. Nor should we condone deception and lies and theft to get ahead in business.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypapa 0 #16 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWe all know the Microsofts and the IBM's of the world probably cut some corners and stepped on some toes to get to where they are today. Is this world we live in better off because organizations such as these took the steps to get to where they are? Haven't we all benefited in one way, shape, or form because of these practices? Isn't this just part of natural evolution? Their marketing efforts and business practices most likely consisted of numerous lies and deception and probably hurt some organizations along the way. But arent we all better off because of it? (Minus a few casualties along the way) In the world of corporate america is it ok to accept the dog eat dog mentality and the lies that go along with it or should these types of practices be banished from the business world altogether? No. unethical behavior is unethical. Lies are lies. Theft of intellectual property is theft. Deception is deception. ALL ARE UNACCEPTABLE. All are unacceptable yet all continue to thrive. Business as we know it today would not be where it is without unethical values and deceptive practices. Be it right or wrong. It is what it is. We as a society have turned a blind eye and have made a conscious decision to accept these practices as long as we have the ability to benefit from them. There is always two sides to every story. Bank robbery and murder thrive too. We still don't condone them. Nor should we condone deception and lies and theft to get ahead in business. We are not here to discuss bank robbery and murder. We are here to discuss business practices. You choose not to condone those practices do you? When was the last time you used a microsoft application? When was the last time you purchased an item that was made overseas in a contract that given to the lowest bidder because they use sweat shop labor? When was the last time you drove down a road that was paved by a contractor that paid off their local congressman to get the business and thus put 5 mom and pop shops out of business because they were relying on that contract to keep their shop open. Hell. When was the last time you bought something at walmart? Look around. It is everywhere. Quit trying to fool yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #17 November 20, 2007 >All are unacceptable yet all continue to thrive. Here's a story about a skydiver who did unacceptable stuff and thrived for quite some time: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=131768 Fred was a nice guy. I found I liked him better than I like Skyride. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,219 #18 November 20, 2007 If you want to support unethical thieves and liars then that's your prerogative. As my mother used to say, birds of a feather flock together.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypapa 0 #19 November 20, 2007 Quote If you want to support unethical thieves and liars then that's your prerogative. As my mother used to say, birds of a feather flock together. Per my previous post. Sometimes it is unavoidable. If you choose to live in the dark, then I guess that is your prerogative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #20 November 20, 2007 QuoteWhen was the last time you drove down a road that was paved by a contractor that paid off their local congressman to get the business and thus put 5 mom and pop shops out of business because they were relying on that contract to keep their shop open. Ah, these are the real victims in the cut-throat society of business...all the mom-and-pop paving companies.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #21 November 20, 2007 QuoteIf you want to support unethical thieves and liars then that's your prerogative. So back to the OP. What did Microsoft do that you would consider theft?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypapa 0 #22 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteIf you want to support unethical thieves and liars then that's your prerogative. So back to the OP. What did Microsoft do that you would consider theft? DOS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #23 November 20, 2007 QuoteWe are not here to discuss bank robbery and murder. We are here to discuss business practices. You choose not to condone those practices do you? When was the last time you used a microsoft application? When was the last time you purchased an item that was made overseas in a contract that given to the lowest bidder because they use sweat shop labor? When was the last time you drove down a road that was paved by a contractor that paid off their local congressman to get the business and thus put 5 mom and pop shops out of business because they were relying on that contract to keep their shop open. Hell. When was the last time you bought something at walmart? Look around. It is everywhere. Quit trying to fool yourself. Start giving some facts to back up the accusations that you phrase in the form of questions. Hypotheticals should be used sparingly to make a point. When they are your whole point, though, it gets tiring. Lying and fraud are unacceptable. Provide some concrete and real examples for us to comment on, and maybe we can reach an understanding.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypapa 0 #24 November 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteWe are not here to discuss bank robbery and murder. We are here to discuss business practices. You choose not to condone those practices do you? When was the last time you used a microsoft application? When was the last time you purchased an item that was made overseas in a contract that given to the lowest bidder because they use sweat shop labor? When was the last time you drove down a road that was paved by a contractor that paid off their local congressman to get the business and thus put 5 mom and pop shops out of business because they were relying on that contract to keep their shop open. Hell. When was the last time you bought something at walmart? Look around. It is everywhere. Quit trying to fool yourself. Start giving some facts to back up the accusations that you phrase in the form of questions. Hypotheticals should be used sparingly to make a point. When they are your whole point, though, it gets tiring. Lying and fraud are unacceptable. Provide some concrete and real examples for us to comment on, and maybe we can reach an understanding. See my previous post. One very basic example dating back 28 years or so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #25 November 20, 2007 Quote All are unacceptable yet all continue to thrive. Business as we know it today would not be where it is without unethical values and deceptive practices. To phrase it more appropriately, business continues to thrive in spite of unethical values and deceptive practices. I think you may be confusing symbiosis and parasitism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites