Patriotism – “dead” or “killing” the US?

[nerdgirl 0]

breaking off from a couple posts in another thread

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patriotism is dead in this country.

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No, "patriotism" is killing our country.

How about a third option? (am confident that there are others Patriotism is being used for fractionalization in the early 21st century.

Do other countries have these debates, or is this another ‘uniquely’ American experience/experiment?

What does patriotism mean in the globalized “flat” world for the US and for the rest of the world?

Is it more patriotic to challenge the GW Bush administration or the Bill Clinton administration … both or neither?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Darius11 12]

The constitution is the foundation of what we are. I believe a true patriot would put all other loyalties aside and have there loyalty to that doctrine.

GWB is a person that we elected, No one should blindly support or criticize him, and He is not America but an employee of America. Loyalty to anyone because of his or her job, party affiliation, etc. does not equal patriotism to me. Loyalty to the constitution and the idea of America is patriotism IMHO.


Please note: I have only been a US citizen for 2.5 years. I believe I might lack the passion that sometimes gets installed in to many of us when growing up in a patriotic family. I am very curious to see what my fellow Dz.comers will say.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rehmwa 2]

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The president/senator/rep/etc is a person that we elected, No one should blindly support or criticize him, and He is not America but an employee of America. Loyalty to anyone because of his or her job, party affiliation, etc. does not equal patriotism to me. Loyalty to the constitution and the idea of America is patriotism IMHO.

I think that's a great paragraph, Darius

Loyalty to some politician that gives me freebies (either the left wing kind or the right wing kind) isn't patriotism either.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AWL71 0]

Patriotism has nothing to do with politices. Patriotism is a love and respect for your country. People need to separate politics and patriotism.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[Nightingale 0]

I think it was clear that the founding fathers believed that challenging one's government was the duty of the patriot.

"We, I hope, shall adhere to our republican government and keep it to its original principles by narrowly watching it." --Thomas Jefferson, March 18, 1793

"Lethargy [is] the forerunner of death to the public liberty." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787.

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."
Reference: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (526)

"All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree."
Reference: James Madison Advice to My Country, Mattern ed. (79);

[juanesky 0]

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The president/senator/rep/etc is a person that we elected, No one should blindly support or criticize him, and He is not America but an employee of America. Loyalty to anyone because of his or her job, party affiliation, etc. does not equal patriotism to me. Loyalty to the constitution and the idea of America is patriotism IMHO.

I think that's a great paragraph, Darius

Loyalty to some politician that gives me freebies (either the left wing kind or the right wing kind) isn't patriotism either.

Hmm, so if a politico gives you pie, you won't accept it?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[rehmwa 2]

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Hmm, so if a politico gives you pie, you won't accept it?

I'll take the pie.

Then, I'll have it analyzed for poison, and "China Grade" food contents.

Then, I'll note how he's wasting tax dollars on the corrupt pie industry.

(I can get my own pie, thank you. Government does not have a responsibility to provide me, or anyone else, with pie.)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[nerdgirl 0]

Fantastic quotes - thanks!

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[akarunway 1]

"GWB is a person that we elected, No one should blindly support or criticize him, and He is not America but an employee of America"------------------------------------------------------------------------------What kinda drugs are you taking? I want some. Does King Bush act like an employee. I don't know what else to say. That statement, I just don't know what to say.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Muenkel 0]

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"GWB is a person that we elected, No one should blindly support or criticize him, and He is not America but an employee of America"------------------------------------------------------------------------------What kinda drugs are you taking? I want some. Does King Bush act like an employee. I don't know what else to say. That statement, I just don't know what to say.

Interesting. Darius has been a U.S. citizen for only 2.5 years and he seems to understand the Constitution and the difference between patriotism and politics better than you do.

_________________________________________
Chris

[warpedskydiver 0]

I concur.

Darius has become a quick study of what moral and legal obligations he has to his new home.

Others take such things for granted, or do whatever they can to insure the demise of the country that gives them such freedom.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

How many born in the USA would fail the immigration test people like Darius were forced to take?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Muenkel 0]

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How many born in the USA would fail the immigration test people like Darius were forced to take?

If it was given with no chance to study beforehand, I would guess a large percentage. You make a very good point. American born and educated, would probably do much worse on the test than an immigrant.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Lefty 0]

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"GWB is a person that we elected, No one should blindly support or criticize him, and He is not America but an employee of America"------------------------------------------------------------------------------What kinda drugs are you taking? I want some. Does King Bush act like an employee. I don't know what else to say. That statement, I just don't know what to say.

You could start by saying "Man, I should go bone up on my political science."

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[rehmwa 2]

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You make a very good point.

it's a nonsense point because of exactly what you wrote "given with no chance to study beforehand"

Digression - Maybe if 'civics' classes were actually about the function and purpose of government rather than social indoctrination and community projects and assignments on global warming and how trees "feel" about public housing then the typical high school grad wouldn't need to study much.

And to placate Kallend - teachers don't set policy, school boards do.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Darius11 12]

thank you both. Now if i could leerne too spel well tat wold be grath.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[1969912 0]

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I concur.

Darius has become a quick study of what moral and legal obligations he has to his new home.

Others take such things for granted, or do whatever they can to insure the demise of the country that gives them such freedom.

Recent immigrants nearly always understand such things better than us spoiled "natives".

Also, Persians are very smart people.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Muenkel 0]

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You make a very good point.

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it's a nonsense point because of exactly what you wrote "given with no chance to study beforehand"

Hey, give me a break. I have TBI. I should have wrote the part about him making a good point prior to my other sentences.

_________________________________________
Chris

[shropshire 0]

It makes I laugh when people say "political science" - I consider it an oxymoron.... Science (at least to me) implies Fact and Truth, whereas political often implies the exact opposite

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[lawrocket 3]

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I think it was clear that the founding fathers believed that challenging one's government was the duty of the patriot.

That's what the First Amendment is all about. Think about it - we had a new country founded by revolutionaries. The founding principles were based upon the gripes about life under the king.

Thus, the country was based on openness of challenges. Jefferson thought revolutions should happen every now and then.

Of course, then the Congress passed the Alien and Sedition Laws of 1798. Don't we have ourselves a nice long history of shit like this?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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The constitution is the foundation of what we are. I believe a true patriot would put all other loyalties aside and have there loyalty to that doctrine.

I am really heartened by the fact that a new American Citizen such as yourself knows this.

Far too many native born Americans seem to have forgotten that the Constitution is a document for all of us.... whether we agree with a current policy or political persuasion.

I would like to think that my pointing out how STUPID and INCOMPETENT this current fiasco is.. without my personal privacy being invaded by the government for my views. Free speech has to go for ALL of us.
The right to have and use my guns as I see fit has to be protected.

The right to not be subjected to illegal searches protection needs to remain.... because I AINT WITH EM.... does not mean I am AGAINST THEM

[juanesky 0]

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How many born in the USA would fail the immigration test people like Darius were forced to take?

If it was given with no chance to study beforehand, I would guess a large percentage. You make a very good point. American born and educated, would probably do much worse on the test than an immigrant.

Forced?, I don't think a requirement should be considered as someone was "forced" to do it. If you want to become a citizen, you got to comply with the requirements. The test is basic US Govt. Knowledge and US history. On average an immigrant has more knowledge of how and what makes this country great. Although I bet my test was far easier than Darius, as mine was taken overseas, while wearing GI issued uniform, and any citizenship fees were waived.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[vortexring 0]

I think it's often apparant that patriotism can be, in a sense, 'blinding.'

It's difficult to explain, but I feel it sometimes prevents people from seeing the reality of many situations. It can discourage objective thought.

It's an important and interesting subject - unfortunately I don't have the time to waffle away my 2 pence worth - I'm off back out to the dust!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[akarunway 1]

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"GWB is a person that we elected, No one should blindly support or criticize him, and He is not America but an employee of America"------------------------------------------------------------------------------What kinda drugs are you taking? I want some. Does King Bush act like an employee. I don't know what else to say. That statement, I just don't know what to say.

Interesting. Darius has been a U.S. citizen for only 2.5 years and he seems to understand the Constitution and the difference between patriotism and politics better than you do.

I've been a citizen of this country for 50 yrs. I kinda (did) like you. After your fall something must have REALLY got messed up in your head. Have you ever served? I did. Don't tell me what I know and don't. YOU ARE ANOTHER SHEEP. Follow your BRAVE leader to the grave my friend.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[juanesky 0]

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Quote

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"GWB is a person that we elected, No one should blindly support or criticize him, and He is not America but an employee of America"------------------------------------------------------------------------------What kinda drugs are you taking? I want some. Does King Bush act like an employee. I don't know what else to say. That statement, I just don't know what to say.

Interesting. Darius has been a U.S. citizen for only 2.5 years and he seems to understand the Constitution and the difference between patriotism and politics better than you do.

I've been a citizen of this country for 50 yrs. I kinda (did) like you. After your fall something must have REALLY got messed up in your head. Have you ever served? I did. Don't tell me what I know and don't. YOU ARE ANOTHER SHEEP. Follow your BRAVE leader to the grave my friend.

Apparently you still don't get it after 50 years. It must be the dope before jumping.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon