Police Brutality: Fatal Taser Video Released

[skycop 0]

If the taser is intended as a less-lethal substitute for a firearm

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Wrong, it's not a subtitute for deadly force, I've explained the use of force continuum ad-nausem in previous threads.


Then why not kill anyone who poses any sort of a threat? I guarantee you'll be safer overall.***

For a smart guy, that is just a stupid statement.



To answer my own question - because overall a cop's safety is NOT the most important consideration. Face it, if safety were the #1 issue, cops would stay in the station all day. There has to be a balance between police safety and public safety.

Some people (including you evidently) think it is part of the job to be injured. I've never had a problem putting my safety in jeopardy for someone (usally someone I don't know). But is not my job to accept injuries when they are absolutely preventable. Or because someone thinks my daily job description involves mano y mano macho fights. When I choose to use force, my use of force is going to be sudden, violent as it needs to be per policy, and not "fair" by any stretch of the imagination.
In this case the guy had some mental issues, a language barrier, and it looked like maybe some medical issues as well. The use of force here was not "fight" type violent, there were no punches thrown or ASP strikes. If you watch the whole video the guy was crashing and throwing things including a chair and what looks like a computer. The guy starts to move away from the officers, that's when he gets tazed. The officers have to look a few steps ahead, if the guy gets away from them what is he going to do? What if he grabs another person or a kid? Airports now are no places to take chances, when he starts moving the officers stop that movement by the most effect tool there. It is not in the officers job description to receive the first shot, then react. My jaw was broken in less that half a second, it happend I dealt with it. That doesn't mean I have to make a habit of it to please people who don't or refuse to understand how the use of force works.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Holding up that flight from Asia was not an option warranted by this guy's actions.

He waited more than six hours in the pre-customs gathering area. I have arrived in Vancouver from several international flights so I know these different parts of this very airport reasonably well. His mother told him she would meet him at the baggage pickup area. But this is actually not even true itself. She would not be allowed into this area of the airport. No he needed to clear customs, then pickup his baggage before he gains access to the part of the airport where his mother was waiting and where the incident took place. But since this was his first ever flight in his whole life and the first experience with an international airport he was confused with what was what (not speaking the language doesn't help). But he had already cleared customs hours earlier. He was not about to hold up some flight from Asia arriving at 1-2 am in the morning.

No the man was confused, tired, hungry and yes angry. He was supposed to meet his mother at the airport, but she had left a few hours earlier after staff at the airport told her he was never even on the flight to begin with. The airport staff, immigration and the RCMP have questions to answer. Don't expect much from the RCMP though. They like to investigate themselves and funny how they never do anything about their own corruption.

Instead of this Mulroney/Schrieber LIEberal inspired witch hunt the national media is about to put us through, I would much rather see the RCMP put through a public inquiry. I am much more concerned about the RCMP murdering people instead of some 300k envelope stuffing incident.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,111]

>Wrong, it's not a subtitute for deadly force, I've explained the use of
>force continuum ad-nausem in previous threads.

Fair enough. If it is used as a "shut upper" then simply forbid cops to carry them. Problem solved.

>Some people (including you evidently) think it is part of the job to be injured.

Which makes as much sense as saying "some cops (including you evidently) think it is part of the job to kill people."

It's not OK for cops to be injured or killed. It's not OK for cops to kill people who are not threatening to kill them or anyone else. Both of those things are true, and intelligent tradeoffs must be made between the two. In this case, the tradeoff was not intelligently made.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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But he had already cleared customs hours earlier. He was not about to hold up some flight from Asia arriving at 1-2 am in the morning.

I am pretty sure the door he is blockading is the only one the passengers from the incoming flight are allowed to use to exit the security area; he would have held up that flight, and the one(s) behind it.

[skycop 0]

It's not OK for cops to be injured or killed. It's not OK for cops to kill people who are not threatening to kill them or anyone else. Both of those things are true, and intelligent tradeoffs must be made between the two. In this case, the tradeoff was not intelligently made. ***

I've never said it was okay for cops to kill anyone. I just understand how it happens and sometimes why.
This is a tragic case, no doubt about it. I just don't make rash decisions and draw uninformed conclusions.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Watch the raw video again and listen to the commentary. When he is throwing the chair and the computer, there is no person of authoruty in the area. As soon as the security people show up, the Polish immigrant puts the computer down and steps away. No you can defend your fellow cops all you want and you can continue to tell us how innocent they are. But I am sorry, the video does not lie.

This man did not resist arrest (I am not saying he should have been let free, they did need to deal with him). But the RCMP shows up (listen to the video where they have already decided he is to be taser before they even reach him) and within seconds of entering the room where he is, they surround him, taser him and pile on and while this part makes me mad, what makes my blood boil is those pigs (yes they are fucking pigs if you ask me) let this man die right in front of them. Paramedics did not even show up on the scene until 10 minutes after he loses conciousness. Please educate yourself on some of the recent RCMP events (including where a six month RCMP rookie out on patrol all by himself is shot dead or in the other case where a four month RCMP rookie all alone in the cop shop shoots another man in the back of the head at close range after being release from jail) before you go off defending this corrupt agency who lack training and discipline. There are sending four and six month rookies out on the beat all by themselves. WTF?

This man died for nothing and the RCMP will do their best to cover yet another incident up. Except in this case, there is video.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,111]

>I am pretty sure the door he is blockading is the only one the passengers
>from the incoming flight are allowed to use to exit the security area; he
>would have held up that flight, and the one(s) behind it.

Perhaps. If the options are to kill someone or to make a bunch of people late, I vote for making a bunch of people late.

[skycop 0]

No you can defend your fellow cops all you want and you can continue to tell us how innocent they are. But I am sorry, the video does not lie.

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There is a diferrence between defending just for the sake of defending, and stating facts. I understand the use of force and it's application. Many may not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong.


This man did not resist arrest (I am not saying he should have been let free, they did need to deal with him).

Okay how? What if he doesn't comply, what if he grabs an innocent bystander, then you'd be bitching about them not doing anything. I hear lots of complaining but no solutions.

what makes my blood boil is those pigs (yes they are fucking pigs if you ask me) let this man die right in front of them

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You really want to have a serious discussion after making statements like that?

Please educate yourself on some of the recent RCMP events (including where a six month RCMP rookie out on patrol all by himself is shot dead or in the other case where a four month RCMP rookie all alone in the cop shop shoots another man in the back of the head at close range after being release from jail) before you go off defending this corrupt agency who lack training and discipline. There are sending four and six month rookies out on the beat all by themselves. WTF?

I don't have to educate myself on this stuff, I live it every day. I looked briefly at the other story, and that too didn't occur in a vacuum. But I won't comment on the actual issues based purely on media accounts.

P.S. Can someone PM me on how to use the friggin' quote and reply features. I'm sorry my post are so choppy, i can't figure those things out

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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>I am pretty sure the door he is blockading is the only one the passengers
>from the incoming flight are allowed to use to exit the security area; he
>would have held up that flight, and the one(s) behind it.

Perhaps. If the options are to kill someone or to make a bunch of people late, I vote for making a bunch of people late.

Those were not the only options. If he had a gun or a hostage then yes keep the passengers on the plane until they have resolved the issue, but one disturbed individual who is causing a scene is not justification for shutting down an international airport. i think you know as well as I do that the cops involved did not expect death to be the outcome when they tasered him.
i really think this is an issue of procedure as laid out rather than procedure as implemented. The police's use of taser in place of other subduing tactics has become widespread across North America and we are seeing an increase of death during arrests as a result.
That said I still appreciate that the cops had a mandate to clear that door; fuck around at a US border and see just how fast things go sideways.

[pop 0]

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What if he doesn't comply, what if he grabs an innocent bystander, then you'd be bitching about them not doing anything. I hear lots of complaining but no solutions.

If you make your decisions on "what ifs" that's even scarier. You make up all the what ifs and then act? Might as well shoot the guy. That will solve ALL the what ifs. WEAK!

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[skycop 0]

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If you make your decisions on "what ifs" that's even scarier. You make up all the what ifs and then act? Might as well shoot the guy. That will solve ALL the what ifs. WEAK!

The whole thread deals in the "what if" arena. There would'nt be a thread or discussion without it. My what if's were legitimate.

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Might as well shoot the guy.

Now that is weak, as well as not even close to being legitimate.
It's funny, all the macho stuff is coming from the cop haters........

And thanks to jakee, I (think) the quote stuff is figured out!

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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what if he grabs an innocent bystander

He didn't threaten anyone. Watch the video and observe how he puts the computer down when the security staff arrives. Then watch the video and observe what the RCMP do when they arrive on the scene. They friggin tasered him for the sake of tasering and then they let him die. Oh look he's not breathing, what should we do? Hmmm donuts ...

This man died for nothing.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The whole thread deals in the "what if" arena.

There are no what ifs. There is video to show us exactly what happened. Are you aware that when this incident occurred the RCMP told the media that this man was tasered because he assaulted the police? Am I watching the wrong friggin video here? This man did nothing to the police, he did nothing to anyone else. Sure he was causing a disturbance, but I never knew that the punishment for property damage was death.

This man died for nothing.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[pop 0]

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My what if's were legitimate.

Well, what if he would have shot the police with the what if gun he had on him? Is that not a legitimate what if? It could happen, and if it can then its legitimate. Might as well shoot the guy and get it over with?

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Now that is weak, as well as not even close to being legitimate.
It's funny, all the macho stuff is coming from the cop haters........

Which part is macho? Using a tazer on a non threatening man, when there is enough cops to deal with a situation without the use oif ANY weapons is definitely not macho. It's weak and unpoffesional. Cops/criminals...what's the differnece sometimes?

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[skycop 0]

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The friggin tasered him for the sake of tasering and then let him die. Oh look he's not breathing, what should we do?

That is a statement that draws a conclusion based on YOUR emotional response not facts. If you don't want to discuss this in an adult way then I'm done.

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Hmmm donuts ...

Insults show your lack of ability to control your emotions. I didn't insult you, from the way you ramble I kinda expected it.

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This man died for nothing.

I think we both agree on that as a whole, it was the circumstances that make it a tragedy all around.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skycop 0]

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Might as well shoot the guy and get it over with?

WOW, that was deep.
From appearances they were trying to contain the situation. If this situation goes mobile then my what if's are a real possibility. Have you had any training in this area? Any situation going mobile is very bad. Ever dealt regularly with the mentally ill?
This is an absolute tragedy, but, some of the stuff said here is way off what reality is.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[pop 0]

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***
This is an absolute tragedy, but, some of the stuff said here is way off what reality is.

Reality? A "what if" is way off reality. In reality there is no what ifs. It just is. When I say "just shoot the guy" of course i am exaggerating. But based on your reasoning of what ifs, tazering would apply to most situations.


edited for spelling: i need to learn to spell.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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That is a statement that draws a conclusion based on YOUR emotional response not facts.

What video are you watching? The cops enter the room, surround him, he backs off and they taser him. He is no treat whatsoever to the 4 cops armed with weapons. Then to top it off, they do nothing once he passes out. While the video does not show this, the paramedics took 10 minutes before they arrived on scene. In this time, not a single cop tried to help a dying man.

There must have been a Tim Hortons on the concourse.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,111]

> i think you know as well as I do that the cops involved did not
>expect death to be the outcome when they tasered him.

If they do not think that tasering someone can potentially kill them, they should have their tasers confiscated before they kill someone else.

>That said I still appreciate that the cops had a mandate to clear that
>door; fuck around at a US border and see just how fast things
>go sideways.

Right. That's a problem that should be solved. Firing all the people who cause "things to go sideways" would be a good start.

The mandate of the police is to protect the public. Period. Tasering people who are standing there bitching (and killing them on occasion) means they are failing. That's not to say they are evil - it just means we have to readjust their priorities.

[skycop 0]

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tazering would apply to most situations.

Go back to the "don't taze me bro" thread for a detailed explaination of the use of force continuum.
You may not like the reality, but those realities are explained there.
We don't have tasers, I wish we did. Our options are limited, PR-24, pressure points etc.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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> i think you know as well as I do that the cops involved did not
>expect death to be the outcome when they tasered him.

If they do not think that tasering someone can potentially kill them, they should have their tasers confiscated before they kill someone else.

Expected and potentially are very different terms.

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The mandate of the police is to protect the public. Period. Tasering people who are standing there bitching (and killing them on occasion) means they are failing. That's not to say they are evil - it just means we have to readjust their priorities.

Agreed.

[Skyrad 0]

Sounds like you hate all police in the RCMP and tar them all with the same brush as a few possibly rotten apples.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[akarunway 1]

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Warning: There is a video available on this page that is rather disturbing. It is from an incident back in October when a Polish immigrant died after being tasered by the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) in the Vancouver BC airport.

I am okay with the police having the taser at their disposal, but these cops showed the world what monsters they are. The video shows this man was no threat whatsoever. There was little attempt to reason with him, no attempt to get a language translator. No within seconds of arriving on the scene they taser him and smother him (one cop can be seen with his knee on the man's neck/head). The RCMP did not even try to revive the poor man once he stopped breathing. They just let him die. I am ashamed of what this world has come to and I have lost most of the respect I may have ever had for the RCMP. Pigs!!!

I just saw the video on the news. Looked like murder to me. The guy was destroying property but not threatning anyone. The the RCMP official says you didn't see the whole thing. Looked to me like I did. These (some/most) cops are getting out of hand. Why couldn't the 4 just tackle him? Pussies

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

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What if he doesn't comply, what if he grabs an innocent bystander, then you'd be bitching about them not doing anything. I hear lots of complaining but no solutions.

If you make your decisions on "what ifs" that's even scarier. You make up all the what ifs and then act? Might as well shoot the guy. That will solve ALL the what ifs. WEAK!

I had a long talk w/ a senior detective one a few yrs.back He had tried to kill himself. He said this is SOP in the police acadamies nowadays. They make you so paranoid thinking every perp wants to kill you they shoot first and ask questions later. This was from a long time decorated officer. Kinda like military brainwashing in boot camp I guess. They sure made an mean asshole outta me 30 some odd yrs ago. And it still stays w/ me to this day unfortunatley. (sometimes)

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[martin-o 0]

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Ever dealt regularly with the mentally ill?

I have, as I said before, and I can tell you that they are doing everything wrong in that aspect.

/Martin