marks2065 0 #51 November 14, 2007 he gets crap from the generals about needing more and gets crap from the country about sending to many. somebody needs to make a decision and he did. since niether side was happy it must have been a good decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #52 November 14, 2007 we are here now and need to finish. mistakes were made and some fixed, others not but we stepped into this and need to finish the job we started and make things right with the people of iraq. we need to give the troops what is needed to do the job right, and the time to complete it, and support the president to finish it. we stood tall and proud in wwII with the president and we need to again now more than ever to show the world that we are the greatest and best country in the world and we won't stand for the shit that some might throw at us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #53 November 14, 2007 Quote he gets crap from the generals about needing more and gets crap from the country about sending to many. somebody needs to make a decision and he did. since niether side was happy it must have been a good decision. So it was a crap decision any which way you look at it, therefore it was a good decision. Now I know not to take your posts seriously anymore. By the way -- paragraphs. Look into them. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #54 November 14, 2007 i don't understand this? you cannot preplan how a war is going to play out. they had several things figured and adjusted as things went. it isn't like they had a dirt dive to work out the bugs or a practice jump to debrief. the people of iraq have more now than in the last 20 years of sadams rule. electric, running water, a fairer government, less persicution. all in less than 8 years. WOW partially rebuild an entire countries infrastructure in less than 8 years while rebuilding the entire government. it take 10 to 20 years just to build a highway in this country. it takes a year just to get a house built from planning to move in day. don't people see what has actually happened over there and the scope of what has been acomplished! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #55 November 14, 2007 presidents make decisions all the time that may be underhanded or not what we like. name 1 president that didn't. roosevelt was told about pearl harbor before the attack but didn't say anything because he didn't want the japaneese to know that they had cracked their codes. does this make him abad president? all those gi's that died most could have been prevented. does that make him a war monger like they are calling bush ? just because you don't like the desicions that are made doesn't mean they aren't the best decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #56 November 14, 2007 Well you certainly seem to think that this region building exercise is a good idea, regardless of its legality or consequences to our military, economy and security. Your share so far is $20,000. I'm pretty sure that they'll take a check. P.S. If you're interested, there was indeed a country that met all of the criteria that Bush used to justify the invasion of Iraq. Links to al Qaeda. WMD's Military dictator. Sharing nukes with our enemies. It's called Pakistan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #57 November 14, 2007 >I wonder if maybe his position rotates depending on who's buying..... It might - although I think he had eyes for Molly more than for me! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #58 November 14, 2007 Quote>I wonder if maybe his position rotates depending on who's buying..... It might - although I think he had eyes for Molly more than for me! good man, Molly's cute ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #59 November 14, 2007 Quotei don't understand this? you cannot preplan how a war is going to play out. Funny, they didn't say that before the start of the war. They told us exactly how it was going to play out....flowers, open arms and everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #60 November 14, 2007 QuoteDo you believe President Bush's actions justify impeachment? Assassination maybe7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #61 November 14, 2007 Quote i don't understand this? you cannot preplan how a war is going to play out. Yes, you can. You absolutely can. That doesn't mean it's going to 100% turn out that way and unless you're a complete and total fuckin' moron you better have a plan b, c, d, e, ad infinitum, but you absolutely CAN plan for the end of a war. Unfortunately, these guys didn't even plan for a beginning; they just went. Hint: When I play chess, believe it or not, I have a strategy already laid out as to how I want the entire game to go and end. Doesn't mean it's going to go that way, but I do have it planned all the way to the end.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #62 November 14, 2007 QuoteQuotei don't understand this? you cannot preplan how a war is going to play out. Funny, they didn't say that before the start of the war. They told us exactly how it was going to play out....flowers, open arms and everything. Don't forget Rumsfeld on how long the war would take (March 2003): “Might last six days, might last six weeks, certainly not six months”! And the cost estimate of $200Billion got Larry Lindsey fired from the White House with the comment from Bush's OMB director Mitch Daniels that Lindsey's $200B estimate was "the upper end of a hypothetical."... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #63 November 14, 2007 Quotejust because things got hard doesn't mean you run and hide. is completing something you started that hard for americans to do anymore? are we just a bunch of quitters in this country? I just want all the staunch supporters of the war to be a bunch of JOINERS... but alas most of them are too fucking chicken......... cluck cluck cluck to all the right wing CHICKENHAWKS out there.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #64 November 14, 2007 QuoteQuoteDo you believe President Bush's actions justify impeachment? Assassination maybe oh, great, now we have the Secret Service coming. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #65 November 14, 2007 Quote just because things got hard doesn't mean you run and hide. is completing something you started that hard for americans to do anymore? are we just a bunch of quitters in this country? As I clearly said, the mission was completed. Bush sold the war as necessary to get rid of Hussein, to make sure he was no longer stockpiliing weapons and/or to prevent Iraq from doing so going foward. All of this was accomplished in 2003. Yes, Bush won narrowly in 2004, but had the election been one year later, he likely loses, and by 2006, no doubt about it. The current problem cannot be solved militarily. Iraq is the Yugoslavia of two decades ago. We do not have an obligation to feed thousands of US casualties every year into that political mess. We have far better uses for the men and for the money. --- To answer the question of the thread: no, you don't impeach a guy for doing a lousy job on a war. It's not a recall petition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #66 November 14, 2007 QuoteDon't forget Rumsfeld on how long the war would take (March 2003): “Might last six days, might last six weeks, certainly not six months”! America has proved to the world on more than one occasion that you guys are second to none when it comes to invading a given country. But your track record of occupying these countries is not very impressive. Mission Accomplished!!! Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #67 November 14, 2007 so your all for making a mess and not cleaning up afterwards ? i bet your house looks like shit. how about we come over and mess it up but not clean it up? this must be the young american way to handle things. we started something over there and it is our responsibility to leave it in a managable state. anything less would be wrong! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #68 November 14, 2007 QuoteTo answer the question of the thread: no, you don't impeach a guy for doing a lousy job on a war. It's not a recall petition. How about for failing to "uphold and protect the Constitution of the United States"? Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #69 November 14, 2007 QuoteQuoteTo answer the question of the thread: no, you don't impeach a guy for doing a lousy job on a war. It's not a recall petition. How about for failing to "uphold and protect the Constitution of the United States"? You can try, but the propoganda used to justify the war doesn't fall in that category. Look at the actions of Wilson, FDR, and Johnson in prior wars. The calls for impeachment have all centered on Iraq, rather than domestic issues where the Constitution has been threatened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #70 November 14, 2007 Quote so your all for making a mess and not cleaning up afterwards ? i bet your house looks like shit. how about we come over and mess it up but not clean it up? this must be the young american way to handle things. we started something over there and it is our responsibility to leave it in a managable state. anything less would be wrong! We didn't make the mess, Hussein did, and the Iraqis are continuing it. Let them clean up their own shit. Somehow I think that you believe we quit in Vietnam too...10,000 days of fighting by the Vietnamese wasn't enough - if we had gone another 1000 they would have succumbed to Western Power! How did past GOP presidents get foreign victories - by a nice narrow mission. Bomb Libya. Invade Panama and get Noriega. Knock out Iraq's forces and then force a surrender. Nothing so stupid as to try to occupy a fractionalized, leaderless nation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #71 November 14, 2007 every president has a thing or 2 in their closet. some let it get out some didn't. lets look at the past..... clinton had blow jobs under the desk and hillary had a white water reagan and bush #1 had the contra thing and gave wmd's to irac carter couldn't get his brother to stop drinking and left the hostages for reagan ford and nixon had watergate the kenedy's had marylin monroe and her death roosevelt new about the attack on pearl harbor weeks before it happened the list goes on and on. lets just be greatfull we are safer now and thank bush for making it happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #72 November 14, 2007 >i bet your house looks like shit. You can have a clean house one of two ways: 1) Blow stuff up, spray blood on the walls, knock over furniture - then pay someone thousands to come up and clean it all up 2) Don't make a big mess in the first place. People who do 1) tend to have houses that look like shit more often than people who do 2). >we started something over there and it is our responsibility to leave it in >a managable state. anything less would be wrong! What we did was wrong. The longer we stay there, the more bad stuff we do. (The Blackwater slaughter was just the last example.) At some point you have to say "let's stop doing the wrong thing over and over again." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #73 November 14, 2007 Quote alot of the GI's that are killed is because of the hold fire until given the ok. the troops need to be able to fire first and not wait until shot at before reacting. Would you quantify "alot" and provide a citation, as well as reference to the specific doctrine to which you are refering? What percentage of the current fatalities in Iraq do you think have been due to IEDs? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #74 November 15, 2007 What I was told by a couple of my customers who served during the initial invasion of Iraq and Bagdad. Right after they took Bagdad they were nolonger allowed to shoot first they had to wait until given permission to fire back even when they were being fired upon. Because of this policy several GI's in their group were injured or killed while waiting for the order to fire back! This is why many of our GI's died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #75 November 15, 2007 Thank you for the response. It's hard to comment on the story you related. Others have more expertise in the areas you describe than I. (If someone does know the specific doctrine, please post!) IEDs, however, are responsible for more than 64% of the US military fatalities in OIF. For example, from American Forces Press Service, i.e., the Pentagon's Press service: "IEDs are the leading cause of U.S. combat deaths and injuries in Iraq, the deputy [Secretary of Defense Gordon England] said." & from Army Times "IEDs are the No. 1 killer of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. More than 3,270 troops have been killed in action in the two wars and through mid-August [2007], IEDs were responsible for nearly 2,100 of those deaths, according to the Pentagon." Additionally, analysis from Walter Reed Army Hospital found that ~60% of injured being treated after surviving an IED blast have traumatic brain injury from the concussion (blast) waves. Defense and Veterans Brain Injury Center. IEDs aren't new, e.g., they were known as 'off route mines' before the latest TLA. They have never been responsible for anywhere near this large a percentage of fatalities in a US armed conflict. The IED countermeasures conundrum is a wicked problem! VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
