Philosophy -- Religion Question

[steveorino 7]

I'm aware of the Apostle Paul's admission that ... When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Romans 7:21-24

Are there other religous writers or philosophers that have said similar things such as 'I want to change, but I can't?'

steveOrino

[jakee 1,611]

Yes.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Butters 0]

Yin and Yang

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pirana 0]

I believe Bronowski addressed this in the more introspective segments of The Ascent Of Man (I'm a big fan of the series, only skimmed the book). He deals quite a bit with the struggle for common good versus personal desires as a foundation for understanding the social evolution of mankind.

In search of a civilized society, we came together for the benefit of the whole, requiring the sacrifice of primal urges and the need to compomise on personal desires.

10,000 years later, the struggle (or the attempt to sort it out if struggle seems too strong) continues.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[AWL71 0]

"The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." This theme is present for most religions.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[steveorino 7]

Thanks, I was hoping for "quotes."

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Yin and Yang

How so?

steveOrino

[hairyjuan 0]

what about what Saul said in hebrews 8:4 IF he HAD been on earth, he wouldn't have even been a priest. additionally, you've never answered 'The Proselytizers Questionnaire That I've sent You several times.


www.thegodawfultruth.com

www.avatarepc.com

I don't know about the rest of you but i love being the creator of my universe.

Steveo- I APPRECIATE YOUR PERCEPTION, BUT I CHOOSE my own perception

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Butters 0]

Two primal opposing but complementary principles which are in constant movement rather than held in absolute stasis that are found in all non-static objects in the universe.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[akarunway 1]

Quote

""I am the owner of my karma .
I inherit my karma.
I am born of my karma.
I am related to my karma.
I live supported by my karma.
Whatever karma I create, whether good or evil, that I shall inherit."
The Buddha, Anguttara Nikaya V.57 - Upajjhatthana quotes."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.htmlPersonally I'd like to look at the positve side of Karma as I get older. Kinda like "Pay it forward" I did a lot of fucked up shit in my youth and I sure am paying for it!

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Shotgun 1]

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"The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." This theme is present for most religions.

And it's a great excuse for all sorts of fun and sinful behavior.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

A slightly different spin on the same conflict-

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The purpose of confusion in laws and regulations is to cause cognitive dissonance. This is a state of mind where conflicts remain unresolved. It weakens the subjects with its prolonged uncertainty. People are then subject to breaking down and having paradoxical conversions. This can be found in researching the phenomenon of brain washing. It is a potent device for control.

From the intro to this article:
http://www.afn.org/~govern/dorman.html

[steveorino 7]

Quote

what about what Saul said in hebrews 8:4 IF he HAD been on earth, he wouldn't have even been a priest. additionally, you've never answered 'The Proselytizers Questionnaire That I've sent You several times.


www.thegodawfultruth.com

www.avatarepc.com

I don't know about the rest of you but i love being the creator of my universe.

Steveo- I APPRECIATE YOUR PERCEPTION, BUT I CHOOSE my own perception

You don't get it ... (well neither do I as I block your emails as I'm not interested in the few things you have sent me in the past -- I apologize for the crassness, but it is reality. I am open minded to some extent, but at the same time there are those who have opinions I do not care to debate with)

As regard to this question, I'm not looking for debate either. I'm working on a presentation I do as a CD therapist. I know the response I need for those who have Christian core beliefs, but I'm looking for other philosophies and religious (non-Christian) world views to help those who are chemically dependent understand that the "norm" is that they can't stop (and stay in recovery) w/o help. They are powerless over their addiction.

steveOrino

[rehmwa 2]

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They are powerless over their addiction.

perhaps I'm taking it out of context, but I don't believe that for a second

even your goal in this is for the addict to "take control" with a simple act of will = by asking for help and accepting help. But it's still 'their' act of will.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[steveorino 7]

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They are powerless over their addiction.

perhaps I'm taking it out of context, but I don't believe that for a second

even your goal in this is for the addict to "take control" with a simple act of will = by asking for help and accepting help. But it's still 'their' act of will.

I'm not stating your will is impotent, I'm demonstrating empirical evidence shows 60-90% of addicts/alcoholics relapse without support groups.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Two primal opposing but complementary principles which are in constant movement rather than held in absolute stasis that are found in all non-static objects in the universe.

I understand the theory, I'm wondering how you related it to "I'm powerless to change w/o help". Perhaps I did not make my question clear.

steveOrino

[nerdgirl 0]

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As regard to this question, I'm not looking for debate. I'm working on a presentation I do as a CD therapist. I know the response I need for those who have Christian core beliefs, but I'm looking for other philosophies and religious (non-Christian) world views to help those who are chemically dependent understand that the "norm" is that they can't stop (and stay in recovery) w/o help. They are powerless over their addiction.

Fascinating question.

W/r/t Buddhism: The first Noble Truth is that life is suffering (dukkha). Suffering is caused by desire & expectations. One overcomes suffering through the choices and actions one makes in life (karma & more) ... living life through the 8-fold path.

I'm not sure that a Buddhist would accept/embrace Paul's admission in Romans or the interpretation/implication that one is 'rescued' from suffering (addiction) through an external force.

Buddhists would likely be amenable to the Serenity Prayer (my mom was an RN at an alcoholism treatment hospital).

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Remster 30]

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I'm not stating your will is impotent, I'm demonstrating empirical evidence shows 60-90% of addicts/alcoholics relapse without support groups.

Steve, I'm curious: do you know what the relapse rate is with support groups?

I have close to zero exposure to CD treatment issues...

Remster

[steveorino 7]

Quote

A slightly different spin on the same conflict-

Quote

The purpose of confusion in laws and regulations is to cause cognitive dissonance. This is a state of mind where conflicts remain unresolved. It weakens the subjects with its prolonged uncertainty. People are then subject to breaking down and having paradoxical conversions. This can be found in researching the phenomenon of brain washing. It is a potent device for control.

From the intro to this article:
http://www.afn.org/~govern/dorman.html

great fodder for debate about "truths" but it doesn't help me know other philosophies that may be similar in context as Paul's statement.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Quote

I'm not stating your will is impotent, I'm demonstrating empirical evidence shows 60-90% of addicts/alcoholics relapse without support groups.

Steve, I'm curious: do you know what the relapse rate is with support groups?

I have close to zero exposure to CD treatment issues...

Laureate Psychiatric Clinic (where i work) is knee deep in studying this issue as I type. The evidence they are seeing is those with support groups and a plan for recovery have a tremendously higher rate of long term sobriety. But it is a LONG TERM study, so all the results have not been made public yet, but I am privy to the info they have to date which is reflecting their hypothesis so far.

steveOrino

[nerdgirl 0]

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Are there other religous writers or philosophers that have said similar things such as 'I want to change, but I can't?'

As far as philosophers, you might look at David Hume & Soren Kierkegaard's work (Danish philosopher) as Christianity were central themes throughout their work. Apologies that I don't have any specific quotes.

Subsequent existentialists (post-Kierkegaard) had human 'agency' as such a central core that I would not expect them to write the kind of words that that I think you're looking for.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[lawrocket 3]

I don't know about religious philosophers, but I always found MacBeth to be pretty brilliant on this topic.

"I am in blood; stepp'd insofar that, should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as to go o'er." MacBeth said that in Act III. MacBeth never seemed to be a guy who was really out there to kill everyone from the start, and it's an indication of his guilt at hat he has done. But he is also saying he can't stop now.

Or look at "Paradise Lost" by Milton. IN Book 4 is a fascinting sequence where Satan himself feels bad about his idea of offering the forbidden fruit to Eve, but does so out of his duty (he is, after all, Satan).

"Like this fair Paradise, your sense, yet such
Accept your Makers work; he gave it me,
Which I as freely give; Hell shall unfold,
To entertain you two, her widest Gates,
And send forth all her Kings; there will be room,
Not like these narrow limits, to receive
Your numerous ofspring; if no better place,
Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge
On you who wrong me not for him who wronged.
And should I at your harmless innocence
Melt, as I do, yet public reason just,
Honour and Empire with revenge enlarg'd,
By conquering this new World, compels me now
To do what else though damned I should abhor."

You might want to read about Augustine of Hippo, as well, who wrote about wishing he didn't have such lust in his heart.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Shotgun 1]

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I'm not stating your will is impotent, I'm demonstrating empirical evidence shows 60-90% of addicts/alcoholics relapse without support groups.

Steve, I'm curious: do you know what the relapse rate is with support groups?

I have close to zero exposure to CD treatment issues...

It would be pretty hard to get accurate numbers either way. Those who have never sought help of any kind are not going to be counted in most statistics. And those who have sought help only through 12-step programs (which are thought to be the most successful help for addiction), would also not be followed because these are supposed to be anonymous groups.

Statistics vary widely from source to source, regarding recovery from substance abuse problems. Most show little difference with or without professional help, but the stats I have seen show anywhere from a 1% to 30% chance of recovery. But again, I think that these stats have little significance except to show that it's a difficult problem to overcome.

From my personal experience, it seems that those who "find God," or some form of spirituality, are the ones who are most likely to recover. (Which I guess is what Steve is getting at by looking for these quotes?)

And I think we need a much greater understanding of how the human brain works before we'll make significant progress in treating addiciton.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

Study what Plato wrote about Socrates and I think you will find what you are looking for. And it is a lot more useful than what is written as fiction.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Gene03 0]

I don't see the quote as "I want to change, but I can't."
I see it more as his personal lamentations on his own human nature as opposed to Gods' perfection.

Good post anyway.

“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)