billvon 3,132 #1 November 2, 2007 As a good many skydivers today jump from turbine powered aircraft, I found this to be interesting. ================================ Jet flies on fast-food oil By AOPA ePublishing staff The day may come when the private and commercial jets crisscrossing our skies run, at least in part, on plant-based fuels that don’t contribute to global warming or resource depletion. That’s the goal of pilot and entrepreneur Douglas Rodante who, on Oct. 1, made the first jet flight fueled by 100-percent biodiesel. Rodante and Chief Pilot Carol Sugars first flew a Czechoslovakian-built L-29 aircraft around the pattern before making a 37-minute test-flight at altitudes up to 17,000 feet the following day. The aircraft, which is rated to run on a variety of fuels, including heating oil, required no modifications to run on biodiesel. “This proves that we can implement bio-fuels into our existing air and ground transportation system,” Rodante said of the first flights. Rodante plans to make a cross-country flight from Nevada to Florida at the end of November, as soon as he and his team have satisfied several FAA testing and safety requirements. And they hope to modify a Learjet to make a high-altitude round-the-world flight next year. The test program is being conducted by Green Flight International and Biodiesel Solutions. So just what was in the biodiesel used in the test flights? Recycled vegetable oil from restaurants that has been treated with an additive to remove the carbon chains. For the longer cross-country flight, the team plans to use canola oil that has been similarly treated, but these aren’t the only possible sources of biodiesel. ========================== http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2007/071030biofuel.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,184 #2 November 2, 2007 Turbine engines for battle tanks are often able to run on a very wide variety of fuels (for obvious tactical reasons). One Rolls Royce tank engine in the '70s was claimed to be able to run on peanut butter.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #3 November 2, 2007 there always seem to be fast food restaurants near dropzones, so this would work out well Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #4 November 2, 2007 I saw this this morning and I'm wondering how the fuel doesn't cause them problems in the lower temps at altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #5 November 2, 2007 > I saw this this morning and I'm wondering how the fuel doesn't > cause them problems in the lower temps at altitude. Most likely they heat it. The Global Express (a swanky bizjet) heats the fuel in its wing tanks to prevent it from gelling. That's standard JP-4, but the same system could easily work for standard biodiesel (which has to be kept above about -10C.) You could even use straight vegetable oil with a system like this; you just have to keep it much hotter (60C or so.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martin-o 0 #6 November 2, 2007 I'm pretty sure that the manual for the pt6 (at least the -34 version) states service cycles for a long list of fuels such as 100 LL. Albeit they are a lot shorter than with jet A1. Considering the basic principles of a turbine engine, anything that is possible to make into a fluid at a reasonable temp and burns should be possible to use as fuel. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #7 November 2, 2007 QuoteMost likely they heat it. The Global Express (a swanky bizjet) heats the fuel in its wing tanks to prevent it from gelling. That's standard JP-4, but the same system could easily work for standard biodiesel (which has to be kept above about -10C.) I think most if not all turbines have fuel/oil heat exchangers. The is when it gets really cold. We have flights that fly over the north pole. In the winter on those flights we take a fuel sample to determine the exact get point for the crew before departure. So this is where the bio might have a problem. I am sure there is a engineer somewhere trying to find the solution already.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #8 November 2, 2007 Ok...just one more reason to stay tight on emergency clear and pull procedures. Wow, what's next.....square windows on passenger jets?! "T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #9 November 3, 2007 >Wow, what's next.....square windows on passenger jets? Or Garretts on jump aircraft! Naah, they'd never do that. No one would jump Garretts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #10 November 3, 2007 Quote > Or Garretts on jump aircraft! "T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,184 #11 November 3, 2007 Quote Wow, what's next.....square windows on passenger jets?! Fascinating reference! You must be old.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #12 November 3, 2007 Hell, I got that one and I'm not old Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #13 November 4, 2007 Quote Quote Wow, what's next.....square windows on passenger jets?! Fascinating reference! You must be old. Ya' know.....that might explain all the dust I'm givin' off in freefall!"T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #14 November 4, 2007 That's cool stuff! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #15 November 4, 2007 I don't think there is enough restaurants to be able to feed the hungry turbine with fuel though. It's a nice thought though.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 November 5, 2007 QuoteI don't think there is enough restaurants to be able to feed the hungry turbine with fuel though. It's a nice thought though. nonsense, we just need a law (for the sake of the environment) that REQUIRES all food to be deep fat fried the same logic used to force enthanol should do it - except this will feed more people rather than starve them ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #17 November 5, 2007 Quote nonsense, we just need a law (for the sake of the environment) that REQUIRES all food to be deep fat fried Still dont think that will even scratch the surface. Just as an example is a 777 from Hong Kong to Newark will burn in the neighborhood of 240,000lbs of fuel one way. How many KFC's do you have to hit to get that amount?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #18 November 5, 2007 Quote a 777 from Hong Kong to Newark will burn in the neighborhood of 240,000lbs of fuel one way. How many KFC's do you have to hit to get that amount? I've eaten there, my best guess is: 4 ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #19 November 5, 2007 Quote I've eaten there, my best guess is: 4 I second that estimate.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #20 November 5, 2007 >I've eaten there, my best guess is: 4 To verify this, I'd take a look at the size of pants sold in the local Wal-Mart. (Hopefully in the same mall as the KFC.) If they average a waist size of 46, you're probably about right. If not, subtract the average from 46, multiply by 4, then divide by the square root of the monthly rental income at the local Blockbuster - and you have your number. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #21 November 6, 2007 Quote Still dont think that will even scratch the surface. Just as an example is a 777 from Hong Kong to Newark will burn in the neighborhood of 240,000lbs of fuel one way. How many KFC's do you have to hit to get that amount? Anybody know what the difference in weight is, between the bio and other fuels? Also, how good is the lubrication with bio? I've yet to see any engine-life comparisons. I remember when natural gas was the "fashion fuel"....'til they finally realized it destroyed engines."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #22 November 6, 2007 >Anybody know what the difference in weight is, between the bio and other fuels? Biodiesel is 880g/l, regular diesel is 850 g/l, gasoline is 720 g/l. >Also, how good is the lubrication with bio? It is both a better lubricant and a better solvent than regular diesel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #23 November 7, 2007 Closer than I thought but I suppose even on the largest aircraft, the weight wouldn't be an issue....only about 30 lbs. per 100 gl. I'd like to see inside an engine that ran that stuff for 100,000 miles or so. Considering the source, I'd be worried about particulates and residue....maybe sludge. There's been alot of talk about this stuff and lots of claims thrown out there but it just seems like it's all been a bit rushed. I'm not convinced there's enough real experience with it yet, to start flyin' it....just an op."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #24 November 7, 2007 QuoteCloser than I thought but I suppose even on the largest aircraft, the weight wouldn't be an issue....only about 30 lbs. per 100 gl. That is a huge number! That mean on a flight from China if a 777 was at gross MTOW that would mean over 6 tons of cargo would have to be left behind. That is some serious cash loss for an airline to leave that much.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #25 November 8, 2007 One wonders what the cost per gal of Jet A vs BioD is.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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