jakee 1,594 #26 October 15, 2007 QuoteChime in left...I'm curious as to how anti-war you truly are. Are you willing to condemn Pelosi for pandering to her constituents at such a high cost? What cost? Has anything actually happened yet? Which way round do you hitch up your cart and horse?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #27 October 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo a few thousand Turkish and Kurdish bodies to set the record straight? That's immoral and insane. Insane is your cause and effect here. An accurate proclamation about an event that actually happened cannot be responsible for a war 90 years later. Iran has declared the Holocaust didn't happen either, but if Israel attacks, it won't be for those statements. Pretending history didn't happen is never positive for future decisions. The problem is that timing is the real matter here. Some realities of Turkey: --They have the second largest standing Army in NATO (next to the US) --70% of materiel support for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan go through Turkey --Reserve storage and air base staging for the conflicts in the middle east and far east is sourced out of Turkey Why anyone would want to stir up this hornets nest is beyond me. A NATO ally with a growing Islamist government who is fed up with the Kurds in Northern Iraq. If Turkey spills into Iraq, Iran will do the same, and the super-success story of Northern Iraq will be gone in the blink of an eye.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #28 October 17, 2007 Update: Dems Withdraw Support of Armenian Genocide Resolution (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302497,00.html) “A House vote to label the century-old deaths of Armenians as genocide was in jeopardy Tuesday after several Democrats withdrew their support and sounded alarms it could cripple U.S. relations with Turkey. “The most notable Democratic challenge mounted this week came from Rep. John Murtha, an anti-war ally of Pelosi, D-Calif., and chairman of the House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee. Murtha fought against a similar measure 20 years ago. "From my discussions with our military commanders and foreign policy experts, I believe that this resolution could harm our relations with Turkey and therefore our strategic interests in the region," Murtha, D-Pa., said in an e-mailed statement on Tuesday.” There's a lot going on in Turkey beyond the House Committee vote. You can go back to 2003 when they refused to allow the Army's Fourth Infantry Division to cross Turkey in order to enter Iraq from the north. Northern Iraq has been functioning as an autonomous state for 10+ years … largely because of the UN-mandated no-fly zone (predominantly enforced by US military flights) post Desert Storm. The Iraq Kurds had (have?) the own representative to the UN (not full). More recently, France's Sarkozy making xenophobic statementa has further stoked Turkish popular feelings of alienation from the West. Beyond the critical value of Turkey for executing the war in Iraq, I would argue that we need them more than they need us in combating Islamist extremism. The westernized factions in Turkey are struggling to maintain power over the burgeoning Islamist elements, most of which aren’t Salafists but are way too far conservative im-ever-ho. [speculation] If one wants to practice foreign policy ‘crystal ball predictions’– Iran gets a nuclear bomb. Turkey has a latent technical capability for nuclear bomb. This August, Turkey’s Energy Minister said "Nuclear energy is not an option. It is a necessity. Turkey is a strong state and has to be strong in nuclear energy as well.” Loss of confidence in US drives Turkey to pursue nuclear weapons capability. That pushes Saudi Arabia to go nuclear … & Egypt … That’s not a crazy prediction. This National Intelligence Council-gathered group: (http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/events/recent/NuclearWeaponsProliferation2016Jul06_rpt.asp), voted Turkey among the most likely/plausible proliferant country (i.e., considered likely to have made an active decision to pursue nuclear weapons) by 2016. If Turkey elected to pull out of NATO, that would be a necessary but not sufficient step to push them toward nuclearization. [/speculation] There are no easy answers. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #29 October 17, 2007 Another example of the no-balls democrats caving into the bullshit rhetoric of this administration. While Turkey is a valuable ally of the US, it continues to turn a blind eye to what was done by its predecessor state, the Ottoman Empire, to the Armenians. It was genocide, plain and simple. If the Turks would simply own up to it, as Germany has done for the atrocities of the Holocaust, then this pathetic chapter of history could be closed. Instead, they continue to deny, with the prospect of becoming part of the EU. As an American, and a world citizen, I expect my government to walk its talk and uphold human rights and advocate for the victims of injustice in this world. I am sorry to say that this is not often the case, but when it does happen, no apology is needed to anyone for doing what is right and just. As someone said upthread -- what's right is right. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #30 October 17, 2007 I would characterize it as realism taking precedence over idealism. [Putting aside for the moment speculation w/r/t which US political party, if either, are using anything for rhetorical or political purposes. You can consider that assumption like a round horse in a vacuum or an assumption of giving the benefit of the doubt to all.] It’s a foreign policy case where the moral imperative clashes with realist potentialities. Do we do the ‘right’ thing morally? I hope no one would argue that condemning grave atrocities is wrong in principal, especially given that one can be imprisoned for mentioning it in Turkey. If we (the US) want to be the shining city on the hill, the beacon of freedom, justice, and democracy (& I’m not writing that facetiously or sarcastically) is there an over-riding imperative to condemn grave injustices around the world? Do we give up our moral values so that we don’t anger some constituency in another country or because it might not be advantageous to us? How do we chose which injustices to which we object – Burma, Tibet, Liberia, Sudan. Frankly, the idealist position is one with which I have a tremendous ethical and intellectual empathy. I wish it worked that way … Turkey is a strong, long-time US ally and NATO member. I already mentioned the importance of Turkey in combating radical Islamists. They’re one of the few strong, long-standing Muslim democracies. They’re not part of the non-integrating gap (a la Tom Barnett). From a realist position ... & it does sounds callous, yes, ... the atrocious events happened in the past. There are lots of unrecognized/un-condemned atrocities that happened in the 20th century. (Doesn’t excuse any of them.) What tangible benefit does the US state get from issuing such a condemnation? Not a lot that I can see. It would not help the economy, healthcare, education, or securing the nation’s borders … that’s the hard-core realist argument. There are a lot of nuanced arguments in between. How likely is Turkey to follow through on threats versus lots of ‘face-saving’ political rhetoric? The resolution may say “Ottoman Empire” but very similarly to the way Iranians trace their Persian heritage back thousands of years as a point of pride, so do the modern Turks. I’m not an expert on Turkish politics. Turkey did cut off certain military activities with France after a condemnation of the Armenian genocide was passed there; I’m not sure at what level of govt that resolution was enacted. If this passes through the House, all the way to a floor vote, which looks less likely now, the US may be in the position to have it both ways. Secretaries Rice and Gates can fly over to Ankara and re-assure the Turkish president and military leaders that President Bush does not support the resolution, thereby ‘blaming’ it on the Democratic majority. (There’s an argument that disagreement makes us appear “weak” that I don’t accept – disagreement is a characteristic of a vibrant democracy.) There aren't easy answers. VR/Marg But I do need to start writing these up as Op-Ed pieces Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #31 October 17, 2007 And it came to pass... Quote Turkey's parliament has given permission for the government to launch military operations into Iraq in pursuit of Kurdish rebels. The vote was taken in defiance of pressure from the US and Iraq, which have called on Turkey for restraint. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said the motion does not mean a military operation is imminent. But he said Turkey needed to be able to respond to a recent rise in bomb attacks blamed on PKK rebels from Iraq. Turkish MPs backed him overwhelmingly, by 507 votes to 19. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7049348.stm I think this piece of wisdom from GW is particularly amusing: Quote "it is not in their interest to send more troops in... there is a better way to deal with the issue" . Priceless. On a serious note though, the PKK is a world recognised terrorist organisation that has been fucking with Turkey for decades. If it was ok for the USA to invade Afghanistan to stir up AQ, it is more than ok for Turkey to kick some arses in northern Iraq. ... Apparently there is evidence that the CIA provided assistance to the PKK in the past - presumably that was back in the good old days when supporting terrorists was cool and funky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para_Frog 1 #32 October 19, 2007 So hey. Apparently enough Democrats agreed with me. Oooops- Harvey, BASE 1232 TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA BLiNC Magazine Team Member Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #33 October 19, 2007 Quote fucking with Turkey for decades. Thank you so much for the image. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #34 October 20, 2007 Why anyone would want to stir up this hornets nest is beyond me. A NATO ally with a growing Islamist government who is fed up with the Kurds in Northern Iraq. If Turkey spills into Iraq, Iran will do the same, and the super-success story of Northern Iraq will be gone in the blink of an eye. That about says it all. I once met an Armenian-American man who talked about the massacre at great length, and I have no doubt that it occurred. Or that the Turks were guilty as hell. But that generation is long gone and I see no value at all in dredging this up, other than placating some voters in a few Congressional districts. But then you can't argue with people who "know they're right", they just enjoy rubbing your face in their moral supremacy. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
