Welfare

[GQ_jumper 4]

Well, there's a lonely, cold soldier out there somewhere, needing ammo for his weapon.

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He can have mine, I'm going home next week

You know all this talk of where everyone's taxes are going and how they help people has made me feel guilty, I haven't paid taxes all year. I feel that twinge of guilt in the pit of my stomach and..................oh wait, ok nevermind, it was just gas. I don't feel guilty anymore, sorry for the false alarm everyone

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[rushmc 23]

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The thread is about welfare...not about your not wanting to pay for people who will not work...nor is the thread about YOU....funny how it all revolves around YOU in so many threads now isn't it.

That does not meet the requirements for a debate... your PM is invalid on the merits.

No you just dont have the guts........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[warpedskydiver 0]

Dan, can I have your ammo?

Pretty please?

There are a few misc parts I need as well.

H2 Buffers, Mags, etc.

Hey I have several of Colt's children to feed and clothe

[kallend 2,147]

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Nor do most people but, you know dam well that is not where it ends. You bring out the most extreem examples to TRY and make your point. You can do better than that

I truely got my answer.. most of you in the right wing would allow for starvation of the needy if it meant a new weapons system for the greedy.

So much for all their blathering about being a christian country....that we hear from the right wingers here.

I have always believed that a society is judged by how it treats its least fortunate citizens.

...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:24.

Tell you what Jeanne... let's get right down to some more "where the rubber hits the road."

In the last 5 years, what is the average percentage of your income that you gave to charity last year? Or did you rely on your government and their /sarcasm alert/ purely altruistic motives to distrbute your taxes to the needy?

Me, I don't mind paying SOME taxes... it comes w/ living in a civil society... but this pork that the govt. calls it's social spending is a bunch of shit.

So, on average, in addition to paying out the NOSE on taxes, I've given almost 12% of my gross to charity. And most of my "right winger" friends either match or EXCEED my giving.

Do you match or exceed that?

That really is a strawman. Voluntary donations to charity include huge amouts given to churches, opera companies, symphony orchestras, art galleries, museums, etc. and other things that primarily benefit the giver.

The majority of the financial giving that my wife and I decide to give is not opera. And it is not to church either. It is to social programs that directly help those in need.

Strawman my ass. John, I always put my money where my mouth is. As I've challenged Jeanne, I challenge you too... what have you given?

I am sure you are just a wonderful person , you support the poor at every opportunity and trumpet the fact on the internet. That in no way affects the overall statistics on charitable giving.

Charity existed during the depression - it was NOT enough. That's WHY we now have government programs in place. Learn a little history.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm still trying to get a grasp of what this thread is or should be about. I see a lot of PAs and rhetoric without actually talking about welfare. I don't claim to be an expert, but here is where I have no issues whatsoever towards my tax dollars going towards welfare receiptients:

The person is physically/mentally disabled to the point where they can not function in the workforce. The physically disabled is a no brainer, mentally disabled is harder to diagnose. But rest assured the mentally disabled do exist and what are we supposed to do with all these physically/mentally disabled people? Let them rot in the streets? How about shoot them? I'm sure some of you would advocate killing these people wouldn't you?

Now here is where I do have issues with welfare people:

Those who have been raised into thinking that "they do not have to take personal responsibility for themselves and their futures" and it gets worse when one welfare generation breeds the next welfare generation and so on. Where does it end?

Welfare should be available. Nobody wants to be thrown out on to the street because they have run into some bad luck. But one person's definition of bad luck is totally different than another person's. I despise the money hungry "I will walk over you to get to the Jones's" people just as much as I despise the "it's my god's given right to sit on my ass all day long and I expect someone else to foot the bill" people.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rushmc 23]

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I'm still trying to get a grasp of what this thread is or should be about. I see a lot of PAs and rhetoric without actually talking about welfare. I don't claim to be an expert, but here is where I have no issues whatsoever towards my tax dollars going towards welfare receiptients:

The person is physically/mentally disabled to the point where they can not function in the workforce. The physically disabled is a no brainer, mentally disabled is harder to diagnose. But rest assured the mentally disabled do exist and what are we supposed to do with all these physically/mentally disabled people? Let them rot in the streets? How about shoot them? I'm sure some of you would advocate killing these people wouldn't you?

Now here is where I do have issues with welfare people:

Those who have been raised into thinking that "they do not have to take personal responsibility for themselves and their futures" and it gets worse when one welfare generation breeds the next welfare generation and so on. Where does it end?

Welfare should be available. Nobody wants to be thrown out on to the street because they have run into some bad luck. But one person's definition of bad luck is totally different than another person's. I despise the money hungry "I will walk over you to get to the Jones's" people just as much as I despise the "it's my god's given right to sit on my ass all day long and I expect someone else to foot the bill" people.

We have a winner. Perfectly stated!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,147]

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Now here is where I do have issues with welfare people:

Those who have been raised into thinking that "they do not have to take personal responsibility for themselves and their futures" and it gets worse when one welfare generation breeds the next welfare generation and so on. Where does it end?
.

You will need to fix the K-12 educational system in the inner cities before that problem goes away.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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Now here is where I do have issues with welfare people:

Those who have been raised into thinking that "they do not have to take personal responsibility for themselves and their futures" and it gets worse when one welfare generation breeds the next welfare generation and so on. Where does it end?
.

You will need to fix the K-12 educational system in the inner cities before that problem goes away.

Many have been trying. The Dems keeping stopping the attempts and then just want to throw more money at a proven failed system.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nerdgirl 0]

Today's Meet the Press: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3898804/ (currently being replayed on C-Span radio, http://www.c-span.org/) is spending an hour addressing many of the themes discussed here, including the role of racism, drug sentencing laws, education, out of wedlock children, culture (principally 'gansta rap'), domestic violence, and sexism.

"The path from victims to victors"

"Exclusive! Entertainer and Activist Bill Cosby and Harvard Medical School Professor Dr. Alvin Poussaint tackle the controversial and complicated issues facing black communities across America with an in-depth discussion about their new book, "Come On, People: On the Path from Victims to Victors." They will join us in studio to discuss the alarming statistics of "black on black" violence and high school drop out rates, as well as the growing need for parental responsibility. Cosby and Poussaint have spent the last three years listening and talking about these issues in what they call "community call-outs" across the nation -- they'll be our guests for the full hour on Sunday."

Book excerpts:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21279731/

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rushmc 23]

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Today's Meet the Press: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3898804/ (currently being replayed on C-Span radio, http://www.c-span.org/) is spending an hour addressing many of the themes discussed here, including the role of racism, drug sentencing laws, education, out of wedlock children, culture (principally 'gansta rap'), domestic violence, and sexism.

"The path from victims to victors"

"Exclusive! Entertainer and Activist Bill Cosby and Harvard Medical School Professor Dr. Alvin Poussaint tackle the controversial and complicated issues facing black communities across America with an in-depth discussion about their new book, "Come On, People: On the Path from Victims to Victors." They will join us in studio to discuss the alarming statistics of "black on black" violence and high school drop out rates, as well as the growing need for parental responsibility. Cosby and Poussaint have spent the last three years listening and talking about these issues in what they call "community call-outs" across the nation -- they'll be our guests for the full hour on Sunday."

Book excerpts:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21279731/

VR/Marg

Mr Cosby has been speaking to this for many years now. He is being called many names by his own. I have a lot of respect for him for what he is doing and the messages he gives out. He is on the money with his efforts

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[micro 0]

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I am sure you are just a wonderful person , you support the poor at every opportunity and trumpet the fact on the internet. That in no way affects the overall statistics on charitable giving.

Charity existed during the depression - it was NOT enough. That's WHY we now have government programs in place. Learn a little history.

Hey thanks for the insults John. I appreciate that you've (as usual) misinterpreted what I've said and slung some slanderous shit from your liberal pie hole
in the process. You're such a nice man. Me? I know I'm an asshole and I readily admit it. That's one reason I give so much... it's helps me to change.

By publically stating what I give I am in no way "trumpetting" myself or trying to be boastful. If that is the only motive you can see in this, then your myopia is worse than I thought.

But I continue to notice that you have avoided any sort of response to my challenge... what do you give in charity, John?

Oh, I'm sure I know your response... "none of your business." Well, we can all assume what your motives are for your lack of response.

And finally, if I need a lesson in history (which I don't), YOU need a lesson in current events. We are not in a depression and there is plenty to go around, esp. thanks to the tax cuts we have received during this administration.

We live in the wealthiest nation on the planet and the food that our nation ALONE produces is enough to feed the entire world. That is a fact. What is also a fact is that government programs to help the needy are ineffective. The very "nanny state" that YOU decry so often is the very one you DEMAND be kept into place to care for those who would suck the govermental tits dry even when they could help themselves.

What is needed is not MORE govt. spending but MORE individuals giving. MORE private sector charitable donations. LESS govt. and more TRUE charity. THAT was my true intention in divulging what I give... to say that I believe that my charitable gifts can be much more efficacious when I am in control of how much I give and where the $$ goes, not some stooge in the govt. I don't mind saying what I give, not to boast, but to challenge others to do the same. My family has been blessed beyond measure and in turn we spread it around. We pay it forward. We have to. Because if we don't, we become curmugeonly (sp) old codgers who would rather hold onto what we've amassed and instead have someone ELSE do the charitable giving... like the caring, warm, government.

One last little note. The pharmaceutical company I work for has taken charitable giving seriously as well. I work for the worlds largest generic pharmaceutical manufacturer in the world... It's an Israeli company, with world HQ in Tel Aviv. One could make the joke that oh, the Jews are stingy, money grabbing people but it's quite the opposite in this company. We give away a very large amount of medication to a number of charities. But the whole point of this is the following: one of our brand name products in the last fiscal year hit a certain sales goal. So in addition to our year end bonus, the company gave everyone a nice extra... Amex gift cards in for 100 bucks. But the catch was, we couldn't use the cards on ourselves. We had to go find someone who needed something... a new coat, whatever. This completely energized the company. It was amazing to hear the stories of what people did. For example, one person went to a cafe and got to know a waitress who was struggling to make ends meet. Her tip for the cup of coffee was the entire Amex gift card. Some people went further and matched the amount of the gift card to whatever charity or person they gave to.

I don't know how many people are in the North American part of our company, that's who got the gift cards. But worldwide we have 40,000 people in the company. That is the kind of company I want to keep working for.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[kallend 2,147]

You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[micro 0]

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You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

Put your glasses on John, then go re-read my post.

I'll wait.

Back? Ok... once more... you can quit -at any time- attempting to discern motives behind anything I say on here... I'll tell you straight up what they are. And I have.

Since you insist on living in the past (i.e. the inquisition, now the depression), let's go ahead and look at it... let me ask you some questions John...

1. Why was charity not up to the task during the depression?

2. Was the welfare program intended to be a permenant or temporary solution?

3. Does it make fiscal sense to tax people during a depression to finance forced charity?

4. Is the government effective in distributing it's charitable monies?

5. Are you ever capable of NOT trying to insult someone's religion or ascribing nefarious motives to their posts? (By the way, have you ever heard the phrase, "you spot it, you got it?")

6. Are personal anecdotes really meaningless in this debate if they could inspire others to make charitable giving a priority in their lives, thus rendering government programs obsolete?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[rushmc 23]

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You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

No, we have a welfare system in ths country because the left has to buy the votes they need to stay in office and keep power. They do this because they have not given any ideas (other than welfare) that anybody would vote for.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[skycop 0]

Personal anecdotes certainly aren't meaningless, there are people here who deal with the welfare system and see the good, the bad and the ugly.

You may dismiss them, but they add some color and clarity.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[micro 0]

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You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

No, we have a welfare system in ths country because the left has to buy the votes they need to stay in office and keep power. They do this because they have not given any ideas (other than welfare) that anybody would vote for.

that's a good point... who do you think the people on welfare and esp. those who abuse welfare are going to vote for but those who want the system to continue. It's guaranteed votes!

I heard someone say once that people on welfare shouldn't be allowed to vote b/c their vote is influenced by one the very parties who is running for office. Essentially, their votes have been bought.

I'm not sure I completely agree w/ that thought, but it made me stop and think a little bit.

I wonder if anyone here is completely pro-welfare has ever spoken to someone who successfully gotten OFF of welfare.

I have, when I worked as a therapist in a non-profit mental health center in nashvill TN. the sense of accomplishment and self-respect that returns to people once they finally start earning a living is just infectious.

granted... i'll be the first to admit there will always be some in society who CAN'T do that... elderly, disabled, etc. I'm NOT talking about them. so don't even bring that shit up.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[kallend 2,147]

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Personal anecdotes certainly aren't meaningless, there are people here who deal with the welfare system and see the good, the bad and the ugly.

You may dismiss them, but they add some color and clarity.

Color I agree with. Clarity, no, they muddy the waters because there is no guarantee that they are not completely atypical.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skycop 0]

I said SOME clarity, specific situations have specific results.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[kallend 2,147]

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You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

No, we have a welfare system in ths country because the left has to buy the votes they need to stay in office and keep power. They do this because they have not given any ideas (other than welfare) that anybody would vote for.

The predominant voters in the USA are older, white middle class people, not welfare recipients.

In other words, your position is nonsensical.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

No, we have a welfare system in ths country because the left has to buy the votes they need to stay in office and keep power. They do this because they have not given any ideas (other than welfare) that anybody would vote for.

that's a good point... who do you think the people on welfare and esp. those who abuse welfare are going to vote for but those who want the system to continue. It's guaranteed votes!

I heard someone say once that people on welfare shouldn't be allowed to vote b/c their vote is influenced by one the very parties who is running for office. Essentially, their votes have been bought.

I'm not sure I completely agree w/ that thought, but it made me stop and think a little bit.

I wonder if anyone here is completely pro-welfare has ever spoken to someone who successfully gotten OFF of welfare.

I have, when I worked as a therapist in a non-profit mental health center in nashvill TN. the sense of accomplishment and self-respect that returns to people once they finally start earning a living is just infectious.

granted... i'll be the first to admit there will always be some in society who CAN'T do that... elderly, disabled, etc. I'm NOT talking about them. so don't even bring that shit up.

I will admit my statement was on the extreem side but as you noted, it is a valid concern. There will always be those that need help and, if allowed there will be many more sucking at the teat of the US taxpayer

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

No, we have a welfare system in ths country because the left has to buy the votes they need to stay in office and keep power. They do this because they have not given any ideas (other than welfare) that anybody would vote for.

The predominant voters in the USA are older, white middle class people, not welfare recipients.

In other words, your position is nonsensical.

Rally? and it is your assurtion that is what is happening in the inner cities? The dempgraphics you just gave us?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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Rally? and it is your assurtion that is what is happening in the inner cities? The dempgraphics you just gave us?

The state of our educational system really is in shambles. We get lessons about that on a daily basis here in SC.

[kallend 2,147]

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I heard someone say once that people on welfare shouldn't be allowed to vote b/c their vote is influenced by one the very parties who is running for office. Essentially, their votes have been bought.

I'm not sure I completely agree w/ that thought, but it made me stop and think a little bit.

It takes no thought at all, it would be unconstitutional. As would be denying the vote to stockholders in defense contractors for the same stated reason, their votes can be bought.

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I wonder if anyone here is completely pro-welfare has ever spoken to someone who successfully gotten OFF of welfare.

Define "completely pro-welfare".

My school hires lots of people who have previously been on welfare, and I believe we still need a welfare system. Are some of the recipients sponging off the system? Probably, but they are a small minority. Unfortunately they are the ones that the media highlights in its exposes. Is the system perfect? No, but with all its warts it's still preferable to having people starving in the streets like in the 1930s.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,147]

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You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

No, we have a welfare system in ths country because the left has to buy the votes they need to stay in office and keep power. They do this because they have not given any ideas (other than welfare) that anybody would vote for.

The predominant voters in the USA are older, white middle class people, not welfare recipients.

In other words, your position is nonsensical.

Rally? and it is your assurtion that is what is happening in the inner cities? The dempgraphics you just gave us?

The quality of your reply speaks for itself.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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You trumpeted for the entire world to see that you give 12% of your gross to charity. I bet Jesus is proud of you.

However, personal anecdotes are meaningless in the context of this debate. We have a welfare system BECAUSE charity was not up to the task.

No, we have a welfare system in ths country because the left has to buy the votes they need to stay in office and keep power. They do this because they have not given any ideas (other than welfare) that anybody would vote for.

The predominant voters in the USA are older, white middle class people, not welfare recipients.

In other words, your position is nonsensical.

Rally? and it is your assurtion that is what is happening in the inner cities? The dempgraphics you just gave us?

The quality of your reply speaks for itself.

I guess an insult fills in when you have no reply.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln