ExAFO 0 #101 October 18, 2007 QuoteAh - so all the guns they had were purchased illegally ? hadn't realised. Punish those who commit crimes, not the rest of us.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #102 October 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteTheorize all you want. The US has a higher per-capita incidence of school shootings than other western nations. The US has a higher number of guns per capita than other western nations. Coincidence? I think not. Sort of like blaming silverware for obesity, don't you think? No. You don't need silverware to pig out at McDonalds. You do need a gun to go on a shooting spree. Nice dodge - prove that McD's caused the people to eat the food and you'll have something comparable to your assertions that it's all the fault of the tool used. OK, Your first analogy failed. Keep trying. You STILL need a gun to go on shooting spree. Sorry, there's just no way around that. True - but it's still the PERSON that decides to use the gun...the gun doesn't somehow magically cause them to flip out, as you try to infer. My analogies still stand in response to your assertions.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #103 October 18, 2007 QuoteQuote Everyone is law abiding till they break a law. Hence why its meaningless So we're into Minority Report territory? The Dept. of Pre-Crime? People like you scare me. Teach me more of your Newspeak? If you're the victim of a crime, you'll change your tune. I was, and I did. Which number do you want to save you: 911 or .357?My 357 or 12 ga. In Ca. if you call 911 you either get a busy signal or put on hold or no answer at all. SadI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #104 October 18, 2007 Quote You STILL need a gun to go on shooting spree. Sorry, there's just no way around that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- True - but it's still the PERSON that decides to use the gun...the gun doesn't somehow magically cause them to flip out, as you try to infer. Wait a minute, that's not what he's implying - he's simply stating a fact that can be objectively observed: that, for a PERSON who flips out and DECIDES to go on a spree of hurting people, guns are pretty near the top of the food chain - maybe second only to explosives (and that hand-phaser I'm developing) - in terms of effectiveness and/or efficiency for seriously or fatally wounding as many people as possible, at as long a stand-off range as possible, in as short a time period as possible. People can strongly disagree with each other on gun policy and still completely agree with each other on the above proposition. Put another way, it's not dishonorable, or a "betrayal" of principle, for a strong advocate of 2nd Amendment rights to acknowledge this proposition as fact. In fact, it's intellectually honest to do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripple 0 #105 October 18, 2007 I wonder if there is a psychological reason for choosing a gun for a killing spree rather than a bomb? Maybe killing someone with a gun would give one a close up and personal feeling, which could be desirable to a person on the rampage. Obviously a bomb doesn't do that. I'm speculating, I hasten to add. Back on topic, it would seem to me that the culture of 'winning' no matter what and giving guns to the losers could be a root cause of the massacres. I suppose the UK having a society that supports it's losers in both tangible (financial benefits) and non-tangible (NHS - which includes both mental and physical health, free schooling, etc.) ways could be a reason why our shootings appear to be less targeted towards the 'haves' by the 'have nots'. They seem to be far more gang related and thus have a different dynamic from the US. The recent massacres in the States do appear to be targeting the affluent, the privileged (and I don't necessarily mean fiscally affluent), by the less well off. Just a thought. Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #106 October 18, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote *** Do police stations get shot up? How about gun shows? Target ranges? Nope. In 1998 the owner of the Glenwood Gun Shop and Range (3 miles from my home) and his son were shot dead by an intruder in their store during an armed robbery. People do sometimes go to police stations, ranges, and gun stores. Only one example was needed to prove his assertion false, and I gave one. Seems like his assertion was a general statement... not an absolute. Of course, I don't expect you to acknowledge that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #107 October 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote*** Do police stations get shot up? How about gun shows? Target ranges? Nope. In 1998 the owner of the Glenwood Gun Shop and Range (3 miles from my home) and his son were shot dead by an intruder in their store during an armed robbery. People do sometimes go to police stations, ranges, and gun stores. Only one example was needed to prove his assertion false, and I gave one. Seems like his assertion was a general statement... not an absolute. "Nope" seems pretty clear to most people. Of course, I don't expect you to acknowledge that.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #108 October 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote*** Do police stations get shot up? How about gun shows? Target ranges? Nope. In 1998 the owner of the Glenwood Gun Shop and Range (3 miles from my home) and his son were shot dead by an intruder in their store during an armed robbery. People do sometimes go to police stations, ranges, and gun stores. Only one example was needed to prove his assertion false, and I gave one. Seems like his assertion was a general statement... not an absolute. "Nope" seems pretty clear to most people. Of course, I don't expect you to acknowledge that. The fact that murders are predominantly occurring in areas where the victims are disarmed by government fiat proves your continued insinuations that the number/availability of guns being the cause of the crimes false. If, in fact, your assertion was TRUE, then most murders would be at gunshops, gun shows and gun ranges. I look forward to the day when you stop trying to blame the availability of a tool for the actions of the tool user.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #109 October 18, 2007 Quote The fact that murders are predominantly occurring in areas where the victims are disarmed by government fiat ... You have proof of that? Seems to me that Western Eurpope and Australia have fewer homicides per capita than the USA. Quote If, in fact, your assertion was TRUE, then most murders would be at gunshops, gun shows and gun ranges. I haven't made an assertion, I disproved someone else's assertion. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #110 October 18, 2007 QuoteYou have proof of that? Seems to me that Western Eurpope and Australia have fewer homicides per capita than the USA. yep. including Switzerland. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #111 October 18, 2007 Here's a Police Station shooting in Virginia. Lots more of those can be found. Lawrocket's assertion is simply incorrect. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194722,00.html and another abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=2998393... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #112 October 18, 2007 QuoteQuote The fact that murders are predominantly occurring in areas where the victims are disarmed by government fiat ... You have proof of that? Seems to me that Western Eurpope and Australia have fewer homicides per capita than the USA. Pay attention, John... the whole thread has been about the USA... don't try to misdirect now! As for proof... I direct you to the UCR. QuoteQuote If, in fact, your assertion was TRUE, then most murders would be at gunshops, gun shows and gun ranges. I haven't made an assertion, I disproved someone else's assertion. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION. You haven't? Was it some other John Kallend that wrote the following?: "The US has a higher per-capita incidence of school shootings than other western nations. The US has a higher number of guns per capita than other western nations. Coincidence? I think not." Looks like a pretty direct correlation to me...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripple 0 #113 October 18, 2007 I guess my other post either wasn't very good or I'm rubbish in general and thus being ignored, however I'll give it another go, just incase I can come up with something a bit better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City says that crime in New York has been in decline. Could this be partly due to the restriction on guns? A bit more evidence? http://www.nysun.com/article/25547 Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #114 October 18, 2007 Quote Quote Quote The fact that murders are predominantly occurring in areas where the victims are disarmed by government fiat ... You have proof of that? Seems to me that Western Eurpope and Australia have fewer homicides per capita than the USA. Pay attention, John... the whole thread has been about the USA... don't try to misdirect now! As for proof... I direct you to the UCR. Have you actually looked at the UCR? 1. The UCR does NOT break down homicides by school, police station or gun show.2. The UCR DOES show states with no-carry gun laws having lower homicide rates than average. We've been over this before. 3. The whole thread isn't about the USA, as you confirm later in your own post by quoting "other western nations" Quote If, in fact, your assertion was TRUE, then most murders would be at gunshops, gun shows and gun ranges. I haven't made an assertion, I disproved someone else's assertion. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION. You haven't? Was it some other John Kallend that wrote the following?: "The US has a higher per-capita incidence of school shootings than other western nations. The US has a higher number of guns per capita than other western nations. Coincidence? I think not." Looks like a pretty direct correlation to me... LAME attempt at wriggling! You wrote: "If, in fact, your assertion was TRUE, then most murders would be at gunshops, gun shows and gun ranges." The statement you quoted is about schools from several pages back. The context in your statement above is lawrocket's assertion about gunshops, ranges, etc. And my statement about school shootings continues to be true.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #115 October 18, 2007 Short of repealing the 2nd Amendment and the govt sending armed agents to my home, I will not be giving up my guns, and those seeking to guilt me into doing so can kiss my ass. I don't give a shit about any/all the skewed "statistics" you vomit all over the web. There are some fucked up people out there, and I do not trust 911 to save me when seconds count. The major cities are the most dangerous places, and they're the most vocally anti-gun. Coincidence? In closing, let me say to all the euros trying to export their laws to the US: Fuck Off. Your opinions do not matter here. You can have your ways in your country. We do not care. Woe betide the poor schmuck who invades my home. He's gonna eat .38 rounds from my Walther PPK.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #116 October 18, 2007 Quote I guess my other post either wasn't very good or I'm rubbish in general and thus being ignored, however I'll give it another go, just incase I can come up with something a bit better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City says that crime in New York has been in decline. Could this be partly due to the restriction on guns? A bit more evidence? http://www.nysun.com/article/25547 NYC Crime Rates 2005-2006(from UCR) Year - Violent Crime Murder Rape Robbery Assault 2005 25932 238 676 11393 13625 2006 25132 266 662 10842 13362 Slight reductions in most categories, more murders. Overall violent crime rate dropped from 320/100k to 310/100k. NYC has had a gun ban for *decades*, so I doubt that the recent decline is due to that, to be perfectly honest. Let's compare to Vermont - a state which has NO restriction on concealed carry (or any other carry, for that matter) and which shares a border with NY. If the availability of guns is the problem, then crime should be higher in VT. Unfortunately, the information I have for Vermont is only for 2005. Here's the stats for the largest city listed. Essex, VT Year - Violent Crime Murder Rape Robbery Assault 2005 16 0 2 3 11 That equates to 83.7/100k violent crime rate. If it truly were due to the availability of guns, I would expect that Vermont would have a MUCH higher crime rate. FYI - due to the ability of anyone to edit a Wiki entry, it's usually not regarded as a valid source for research.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #117 October 18, 2007 Here's a Police Station shooting in Virginia. Lots more of those can be found. Lawrocket's assertion is simply incorrect. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194722,00.html and another abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=2998393Quote Two instances or even two dozen does not equate to ALOT. Geez John, does math evade you when your own personal beliefs become involved? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #118 October 18, 2007 You still need to provide proof that the availability of guns is what is driving crime....we're still waiting. Fact is, there's no way to prove OR disprove that the AMOUNT of weapons available is what is driving violent crime, as you damned well know....but continue to drag out that rotting red herring every time one of these threads come up. The only thing that has been reliably shown is that, when a state passes a concealed carry law, crimes against individuals tend to drop dramatically...and stay at a lower level.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,117 #119 October 18, 2007 QuoteHere's a Police Station shooting in Virginia. Lots more of those can be found. Lawrocket's assertion is simply incorrect. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194722,00.html and another abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=2998393Quote Two instances or even two dozen does not equate to ALOT. Geez John, does math evade you when your own personal beliefs become involved? Who claimed it was "a lot"? All you need is one to prove that it's not none. You could try paying attention too. "Do police stations get shot up? How about gun shows? Target ranges? Nope", lawrocket, this thread. Actually it appears there were more police station shootings than school shootings in 2006.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,117 #120 October 18, 2007 How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #121 October 18, 2007 Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,117 #122 October 18, 2007 Well, golly gee, it seems that Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston, and New Orleans metro areas ALL have higher homicide rates than NYC metro area according to the 2006 UCR. Houston and NO are far higher. There goes mnealtx's theory. Whoda Thunkit?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,117 #123 October 18, 2007 Quote Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me. Are you being punished? I don't care if you have a gun or not. Just face the fact that gun ownership comes with a price attached. Don't pretend that guns make society safer, it doesn't help your case if you delude yourself.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #124 October 18, 2007 Quote Quote Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me. Are you being punished? I don't care if you have a gun or not. Just face the fact that gun ownership comes with a price attached. Don't pretend that guns make society safer, it doesn't help your case if you delude yourself. Everything in life comes with a risk attached. I'm not interested in society being safer. I'm interested in my and my family's safety.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #125 October 18, 2007 John, do you own a gun? If so when will you be going on a killing spree, or decide to shoot your GF? If you do not own one what will your response be if you are robbed at gunpoint some evening while out on the town with your GF, and your GF is subsequently raped and murdered? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 5 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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mnealtx 0 #118 October 18, 2007 You still need to provide proof that the availability of guns is what is driving crime....we're still waiting. Fact is, there's no way to prove OR disprove that the AMOUNT of weapons available is what is driving violent crime, as you damned well know....but continue to drag out that rotting red herring every time one of these threads come up. The only thing that has been reliably shown is that, when a state passes a concealed carry law, crimes against individuals tend to drop dramatically...and stay at a lower level.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #119 October 18, 2007 QuoteHere's a Police Station shooting in Virginia. Lots more of those can be found. Lawrocket's assertion is simply incorrect. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194722,00.html and another abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=2998393Quote Two instances or even two dozen does not equate to ALOT. Geez John, does math evade you when your own personal beliefs become involved? Who claimed it was "a lot"? All you need is one to prove that it's not none. You could try paying attention too. "Do police stations get shot up? How about gun shows? Target ranges? Nope", lawrocket, this thread. Actually it appears there were more police station shootings than school shootings in 2006.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,117 #120 October 18, 2007 How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #121 October 18, 2007 Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,117 #122 October 18, 2007 Well, golly gee, it seems that Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston, and New Orleans metro areas ALL have higher homicide rates than NYC metro area according to the 2006 UCR. Houston and NO are far higher. There goes mnealtx's theory. Whoda Thunkit?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,117 #123 October 18, 2007 Quote Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me. Are you being punished? I don't care if you have a gun or not. Just face the fact that gun ownership comes with a price attached. Don't pretend that guns make society safer, it doesn't help your case if you delude yourself.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #124 October 18, 2007 Quote Quote Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me. Are you being punished? I don't care if you have a gun or not. Just face the fact that gun ownership comes with a price attached. Don't pretend that guns make society safer, it doesn't help your case if you delude yourself. Everything in life comes with a risk attached. I'm not interested in society being safer. I'm interested in my and my family's safety.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #125 October 18, 2007 John, do you own a gun? If so when will you be going on a killing spree, or decide to shoot your GF? If you do not own one what will your response be if you are robbed at gunpoint some evening while out on the town with your GF, and your GF is subsequently raped and murdered? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 5 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kallend 2,117 #120 October 18, 2007 How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #121 October 18, 2007 Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #122 October 18, 2007 Well, golly gee, it seems that Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston, and New Orleans metro areas ALL have higher homicide rates than NYC metro area according to the 2006 UCR. Houston and NO are far higher. There goes mnealtx's theory. Whoda Thunkit?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #123 October 18, 2007 Quote Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me. Are you being punished? I don't care if you have a gun or not. Just face the fact that gun ownership comes with a price attached. Don't pretend that guns make society safer, it doesn't help your case if you delude yourself.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #124 October 18, 2007 Quote Quote Quote How does Vermont compare with Houston, or Dallas or New Orleans? According to your logic, their rates should be the same Sir, you were a LEO in a country that until recently did not even arm their police. You're going to have a bias. Stop trying to import your native laws to our country. Political carpetbagging is not a good thing. Why should I be punished for others' sins? Please. Answer that for me. Are you being punished? I don't care if you have a gun or not. Just face the fact that gun ownership comes with a price attached. Don't pretend that guns make society safer, it doesn't help your case if you delude yourself. Everything in life comes with a risk attached. I'm not interested in society being safer. I'm interested in my and my family's safety.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #125 October 18, 2007 John, do you own a gun? If so when will you be going on a killing spree, or decide to shoot your GF? If you do not own one what will your response be if you are robbed at gunpoint some evening while out on the town with your GF, and your GF is subsequently raped and murdered? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
