minimum government services/protections/benefits

[nerdgirl 0]

In response to a query, exAFO offered up a list as a minimum:

“Police/Corrections
“Defense
“Enforcement of Contracts
“Education to 12th grade”

Do folks agree with that? Less? More?

Off the top of my head, I would add:
-- Patent (intellectual property) registration
-- Setting of standards … physical not ethical or moral The railroads tried to do this themselves at one point; multiple different gauges were employed
-- Public health & mandatory vaccinations … that’s not some idealistic sentiment; microbes don’t discriminate
-- Regulation of water and sewage treatment
-- In complete agreement with Bush (Vannevar Bush) establishment and support of the National Science Foundation (or a more aggressive, risk-embracing equivalent), e.g., http://cnx.org/content/m14356/latest/ & http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/nsf50/vbush1945.htm
-- Oversight of the maintenance of core, historic documents such as those in the National Archives, e.g., Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Gettysburg Address.
-- Control of printing money
-- Federal reserve

So what in that list can be done more efficiently and effectively by the private sector?

What else should be included in that list?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[normiss 897]

ATC sure is nice too.
I'd hate to let the airlines do that on their own.

[kallend 2,150]

Do you include oversight of food and drug quality under "public health"?


I fail to see what is so attractive about a minimum level of service. Just as I prefer my physician and lawyer to have been well above the minimum passing levels in grad school, so I'd prefer government service at a level above the absolute minimum.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ExAFO 0]

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Do you include oversight of food and drug quality under "public health"?


I fail to see what is so attractive about a minimum level of service. Just as I prefer my physician and lawyer to have been well above the minimum passing levels in grad school, so I'd prefer government service at a level above the absolute minimum.

Eventually the cost/benefit analysis will show diminishing returns. Who gets to make that call?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[kallend 2,150]

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Do you include oversight of food and drug quality under "public health"?


I fail to see what is so attractive about a minimum level of service. Just as I prefer my physician and lawyer to have been well above the minimum passing levels in grad school, so I'd prefer government service at a level above the absolute minimum.

Eventually the cost/benefit analysis will show diminishing returns. Who gets to make that call?

Does that insight apply to physicians and lawyers too?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Do you include oversight of food and drug quality under "public health"?

No. I did not originally. That's another potential nominee for the list.

I bet you & others here could cite the case of thalidomide babies as an example of where US FDA provided a protective service, which was largely due to one, stubborn in a very good way, FDA scientist-chick who refused to approve the sale/use in the US. Europe, which is now frequently regarded a more regulartory, did not prohibit thalimide ...

But at the core of that is still an assumption of value in the health of other people's children ...

Another example is the recent adulterated pet foods and toothpaste from China, http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11656278

There was an excellent commentary on NPR's Morning Edition a short while ago ... that I can't locate ... that put it in context of the limit of the market. Hypothetically, consumers should be able to elect to not purchase goods they feel are potentially 'unsafe' but as goods to US intermingle, the US consumer can't always discriminate. (The original was better than my description - ).

Conversely, while as much as an impact as the contaminated pet foods had on the pet owners, another contaminant (diethylene glycol - used because it's cheaper than non-toxic glycerin) in other products from China, e.g., cough syrup, has likely killed thousands in places like Bangladesh & Panama.

NY Times did an an expose a few months back: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/world/americas/06poison.html?ex=1182139200&en=2196679c766f38b1&ei=5070
although it's been a suspected or identified problem for years ... just didn't have dying American cats and dogs to get the public's attention.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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I fail to see what is so attractive about a minimum level of service. Just as I prefer my physician and lawyer to have been well above the minimum passing levels in grad school, so I'd prefer government service at a level above the absolute minimum.

Eventually the cost/benefit analysis will show diminishing returns. Who gets to make that call?

That's a crucial question.

I would pose that the democratically-elected representatives of the citizenry be empowered to designate which situations are left to the citizenry (i.e., the right to be as smart or as stupid as you want to be) or which situations warrant designation of an authority who gets to make that call.

Which direction is the exceptionalism? Should the choice remain with the citizenry by default or be given by exception?

It's my understanding that the California ballot initiative system was established to some extent to incorporate more active participation of the state's citizenry in the state government framework. There does not seem to be a consensus on how effective that experiment has been.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[ryoder 1,590]

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Off the top of my head, I would add:
-- Patent (intellectual property) registration

No, NO, HELL NO!!!
The patent process was SUPPOSED to promote innovation, but it does exactly the opposite, and now we even have parasite companies whose entire business model is to go after companies that actually produce something and suck the blood out of them. The whole thing needs to die.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Off the top of my head, I would add:
-- Patent (intellectual property) registration

No, NO, HELL NO!!!
The patent process was SUPPOSED to promote innovation, but it does exactly the opposite, and now we even have parasite companies whose entire business model is to go after companies that actually produce something and suck the blood out of them. The whole thing needs to die.

so then you'd have large parasitic companies like Microsoft just waiting for innovation and then stealing it. (oh wait, we already have that reality)

Innovation would not prosper in your desired outcome.

[ryoder 1,590]

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so then you'd have large parasitic companies like Microsoft just waiting for innovation and then stealing it. (oh wait, we already have that reality)

Innovation would not prosper in your desired outcome.

Let me introduce you to this concept called "Open Source Software". Believe it or not, there are people who actually write software because they ENJOY it, and put it out in the public domain for FREE. Are you going to tell me something like Linux could only exist as long as there is a Patent Office?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Off the top of my head, I would add:
-- Patent (intellectual property) registration

No, NO, HELL NO!!!
The patent process was SUPPOSED to promote innovation, but it does exactly the opposite, and now we even have parasite companies whose entire business model is to go after companies that actually produce something and suck the blood out of them. The whole thing needs to die.

Is what you describe a fault of the patent system ... or aggressive free market business practices?

I'm in violent agreement with the need for revisions to the current systems, especially when it comes to reverse payments settlement agreements and allowing patents on some fundamental processes and natural organisms ... but to completely eliminate as a function of government? How do you propose avoiding the worst of the situations in China and other nations that don't value intellectual property rights?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 3,120]

>So what in that list can be done more efficiently and effectively
>by the private sector?

A great many of those. For example, a private national version of the CDC could cut costs to the bone and set an acceptable fatality limit for any given contagion. i.e. say that having 10,000 people a year die of e. coli (or pick your contagion) is acceptable. Such limits could make for an extremely efficient, profitable and effective disease control system.

But is that acceptable to the people who were NOT shareholders in that company?

Unfortunately, efficiency, effectiveness and profitability are often not quite synonymous with the public good - and hence direct governmental control (using standards we have voted for as a people, or standards created by our representatives) is sometimes preferable.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Let me introduce you to this concept called "Open Source Software". Believe it or not, there are people who actually write software because they ENJOY it, and put it out in the public domain for FREE. Are you going to tell me something like Linux could only exist as long as there is a Patent Office?

Good example. Why has Linux worked? Why is it the seeming exception? (Other examples?)

What has enabled the coders of Linus to be able to distribute their product without (substantial?) financial gain? Is there something unique about source code as a commodity that's based on moving electrons rather than more macroscale stuff?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[normiss 897]

there is in large part a "geek factor" in the success of free software...something not many business models could make work. While *nix OS's are FINALLY making some advances, it's still a small portion of the OS's in use due largely to enterprise support costs and lack of general acceptance by end users.
That's a very isolated example of current patent issues albeit a fine one.

[ryoder 1,590]

I brought up software because the other poster brought Microsoft. Obviously sw development is unique because the recurring cost of producing each copy is $0.

Here is an example of the production of tangible goods, where focusing on defending the patent caused the patent holder to fall behind the competition, causing the government to step in when it became a risk to national security. Read the section titled "The Patent War":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers#The_patent_war

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[birdshit 0]

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In response to a query, exAFO offered up a list as a minimum:

“Police/Corrections
“Defense
“Enforcement of Contracts
“Education to 12th grade”

Do folks agree with that? Less? More?

Off the top of my head, I would add:
-- Patent (intellectual property) registration
-- Setting of standards … physical not ethical or moral The railroads tried to do this themselves at one point; multiple different gauges were employed
-- Public health & mandatory vaccinations … that’s not some idealistic sentiment; microbes don’t discriminate
-- Regulation of water and sewage treatment
-- In complete agreement with Bush (Vannevar Bush) establishment and support of the National Science Foundation (or a more aggressive, risk-embracing equivalent), e.g., http://cnx.org/content/m14356/latest/ & http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/nsf50/vbush1945.htm
-- Oversight of the maintenance of core, historic documents such as those in the National Archives, e.g., Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Gettysburg Address.
-- Control of printing money
-- Federal reserve

So what in that list can be done more efficiently and effectively by the private sector?

What else should be included in that list?

VR/Marg

The national institute of health. Leaving "cures" to drug companies is a bad idea, because "cures" are "bad for business". "treatments for the rest of your life" generate way more revenue.

NASA is also a good idea. At the rate we are screwing up our planet, we are gonna need a new one pretty quick.

[nigel99 619]

There is an accounting trap that can be had in efficiency savings.

I guess it applies in other area's as well but electrical supply is the area that I am most familiar.

From an engineering point of view a national grid with excess capacity to cope with sudden fluctuations in loading is required - the problem is that this costs money, lots of money. When people look at the financial aspects of running electrical installations they tend to say that there is alot of waste, excess charging etc as a result of this spare capacity. I am sure that accountants accept a certain level of redundancy but by their nature (and its their responsibility) they look to minimise, where an engineer looks to maximise. The end result of privatising for efficiency is that the engineering viewpoint gets lost in the cost savings and then when a disaster happens people suddenly realise that you can't just bring that de-commissioned power station back online in 20 minutes.

The problem is that government focus has shifted over the past 50/60 years such that even governments look at cost savings in isolation to national wellbeing. So I doubt that government/private control would make a difference.

With regards to health the problem with National healthcare, versus private healthcare is that the objectives are different and the patient suffers (I have first hand experience of this). National healthcare must provide the MINIMUM recovery in order to be efficient with tax dollars. Private health must deliver MAXIMUM recovery as cost effectively as possible to remain competitive. A direct example of this - I broke my wrist snowboarding. Private medical in Switzerland told me that I needed to have surgery and be pinned to minimise the long term effects. NHS in the UK just slapped a plaster on and told me I would have 80% movement for the rest of my life. I chose to get it done for free and regret it as it is severly limiting.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Let me introduce you to this concept called "Open Source Software". Believe it or not, there are people who actually write software because they ENJOY it, and put it out in the public domain for FREE. Are you going to tell me something like Linux could only exist as long as there is a Patent Office?

Good example. Why has Linux worked?

Because every self respecting geek needs a unix, operating systems are fun to write, college students have more time to write device drivers than money to buy supported hardware, it solves the chicken-and-egg problem of needing real experience to get a decent job and job to get real experiencet, and a code sample employers can look at goes farther than a personal reference.

No self respecting geek needs a WYSIWYG word processor (their favorite editor with movement keys like hjkl and a text formatting language is faster) and they aren't fun to write so there aren't a lot. OpenOffice is free because it was cheaper for Sun to buy company which made it and such software is a context activity for Sun (per Moore's Core And Context) better handled by outsourcing it to the free software community which won't charge Sun for upgrades.

Companies have to pay geeks to develop software they don't need personally. Getting less sexy software done which requires senior people (young engineers are easily amused) takes piles of money and stock (total compensation pushing double what a startup might pay when you disregard the stock options that have a 1 in 10 chance of paying off based on what the business people do inspite of your recomendations).

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What has enabled the coders of Linus to be able to distribute their product without (substantial?) financial gain?

The compensation is non-financial.

[nerdgirl 0]

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For example, a private national version of the CDC could cut costs to the bone and set an acceptable fatality limit for any given contagion. i.e. say that having 10,000 people a year die of e. coli (or pick your contagion) is acceptable. Such limits could make for an extremely efficient, profitable and effective disease control system.

What you're proposing is a potential model for something like hemorrhaghic E. coli H5O57 (the one that gets attention for killing kids when its in undercooked hamburgers or packaged salads).

Still need a purely privately sector (not just private managed -- not just privately funded) model for human-to-human transmissible disease prevention. In order to get herd immunity, a certain *large* percentage of the population needs to be immunized.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[dan_iv 0]

Less, less, less

See http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

[nerdgirl 0]

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Less, less, less

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Okay, what do we keep?

I stole ExAFO's list & added to it.
There seems to be violent agreement that the current system for protecting individual and commercial private intellectual property rights has problems; no versus some system is still in dispute.

How about intelligence gathering & analysis?
Should it be funded (?), overseen (?), executed (?) by the representatives of the democratically-elected government or left to the private sector?

The case for the latter is discussed in “Managing the Private Spies: The Use of Commercial Augmentation for Intelligence Operations" Glenn J. Voelz, MAJ USA, Joint Military Intelligence College, June 2006: http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/voelz.pdf.

VR/Marg

p.s. Asserting 'geek' cred (altho' I'm more of a 'nerd' at heart): back in the days when I need Unix-like capabilities for running X-ray crystallography modeling programs, partitioned a hard drive to run Linux and MS. Linux worked fine; MS could not deal. Ended up getting 2 separate drives. Finally got a Sun system (oh - dating myself)

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

Less, less, less

Quote

Okay, what do we keep?

I stole ExAFO's list & added to it.
There seems to be violent agreement that the current system for protecting individual and commercial private intellectual property rights has problems; no versus some system is still in dispute.

How about intelligence gathering & analysis?
Should it be funded (?), overseen (?), executed (?) by the representatives of the democratically-elected government or left to the private sector?

The case for the latter is discussed in “Managing the Private Spies: The Use of Commercial Augmentation for Intelligence Operations" Glenn J. Voelz, MAJ USA, Joint Military Intelligence College, June 2006: http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/voelz.pdf.

VR/Marg

p.s. Asserting 'geek' cred (altho' I'm more of a 'nerd' at heart): back in the days when I need Unix-like capabilities for running X-ray crystallography modeling programs, partitioned a hard drive to run Linux and MS. Linux worked fine; MS could not deal. Ended up getting 2 separate drives. Finally got a Sun system (oh - dating myself)

hey, I used to do computational X-ray crystallography too, back in the day...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.