Stumpy 284 #76 October 10, 2007 QuoteI don't believe I've ever seen John assert that what the UK is doing is wrong, or worse than the US. Are you serious???? The UK has gun control, john continually comments on how stupid he thinks it is there, cherry picking stories and snippets of stories while ignoring the cultural differnces. How is that NOT asserting what the UK does is wrong?! I agree with John on some things, including that gun control in the US is not a good idea, but the continual Uk focussed slagging is boring misguided, and in a lot of cases, wrong.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #77 October 10, 2007 The whole issue in regards to all this has to do essentially with cultural and social issues. That's why I completely agree with you when you say this, for example: 'and that is fine, part from the fact that you continually miss the aspect that the starting point for the two countries (amount of gun ownership pre ban, culture around guns etc) was completely different, and therefore you cannot compare the two.' What I can't understand is why US pro-gun advocates can't spend more time delving into the problems of their nations culture rather than continually bleating about their right to gun ownership. Whilst gun ownership is a hot topic of debate, it's hardly even scratching at the crux of the issue. John can go on about 'England' becoming a police state all he likes. He can use 'England' and it's problems with gun crime in relation to the ban as much as he likes. But again, this is avoidance of dealing with what is really necessary. He can also be blinkered into believing that because a utopian society is impossible, why work towards a society where there is no need for guns. But he purposefully forgets 'England' (in at least the last century) was never a nation where individuals felt it necessary to go about their lives armed. The nation had advanced itself socially enough to allow this. People like John should make more effort to deal with their own nations social and cultural issues surrounding gun crime, rather than continually argue over their perceived rights. Perhaps then we might see some positive social advancements. And maybe even a reversal of young British blacks being heavily influenced by dickhead American gangsta rapper types. Anyway, I blame it all on the telly.... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vpozzoli 0 #78 October 10, 2007 Quote Anyway, I blame it all on the telly.... Man, you must be like, really old or something. Nowadays the cool thing to do is blame it all on video games.TV and rock 'n roll music are sooo 60s and 70s. Cheers mate. Vale Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #79 October 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteI don't believe I've ever seen John assert that what the UK is doing is wrong, or worse than the US. Are you serious???? The UK has gun control, john continually comments on how stupid he thinks it is there, cherry picking stories and snippets of stories while ignoring the cultural differnces. How is that NOT asserting what the UK does is wrong?! I agree with John on some things, including that gun control in the US is not a good idea, but the continual Uk focussed slagging is boring misguided, and in a lot of cases, wrong. Show me your cites where John has said it's stupid. He freely admits that he disagrees with the laws. Saying that the UK's gun control laws have been ineffective in reducing gun crime != "slagging" the UK. Far from being "misguided", the Home Office stats themselves bear it out.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #80 October 10, 2007 Quote Quote Anyway, I blame it all on the telly.... Man, you must be like, really old or something. Nowadays the cool thing to do is blame it all on video games.TV and rock 'n roll music are sooo 60s and 70s. Cheers mate. Vale What would y'know!? Enough of that - take your age slur with your spaghetti bending butt back to Milan. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #81 October 10, 2007 Quote But he purposefully forgets 'England' (in at least the last century) was never a nation where individuals felt it necessary to go about their lives armed. http://www.celticgrounds.com/chapters/c-weapons.htm I really should go to the MP Holy Grail for pics. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vpozzoli 0 #82 October 10, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Anyway, I blame it all on the telly.... Man, you must be like, really old or something. Nowadays the cool thing to do is blame it all on video games.TV and rock 'n roll music are sooo 60s and 70s. Cheers mate. Vale What would y'know!? Enough of that - take your age slur with your spaghetti bending butt back to Milan. I know 'cause I'm in the same boat Now get off my lawn! Damned kids! Vale Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #83 October 10, 2007 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #84 October 10, 2007 Quote Quote But he purposefully forgets 'England' (in at least the last century) was never a nation where individuals felt it necessary to go about their lives armed. http://www.celticgrounds.com/chapters/c-weapons.htm I really should go to the MP Holy Grail for pics. How long ago was that!? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #85 October 10, 2007 Quote How long ago was that!? How long ago was this? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #86 October 10, 2007 Is that you with a Sunday morning hangover? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #87 October 10, 2007 The British have a culture that looks at firearms differently than the Americans do. Both seem to want to export their views to the other. Didn't we fight a war 231 years ago that brought us to the conclusion that we're better off not being the same political entity? Threads like these remind me of a hamster wheel. Lotsa effort, and you get nowhere.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #88 October 10, 2007 QuotePeople like John should make more effort to deal with their own nations social and cultural issues surrounding gun crime, rather than continually argue over their perceived rights. It's not a "perceived" right, it's an actual explicit constitutional right. It's the anti-gun folks who ignore all the social precedents and causes of crime, and focus solely on guns. If those anti-gun folks would just quit trying to take our guns away from us, then we could all come together to address the cultural issues which lead to crime. But to the anti-gunner way of thinking, if we just take guns away from gang members, then the gang members will suddenly be converted into choir boys. Yeah, right... And as long as they're trying to take guns from the law-abiding, then the law-abiding have to expend effort to resist that. So both sides just waste a lot of time focusing on something that's irrelevant, while the actual social causes of crime are ignored. It's a nice setup, eh? QuoteAnd maybe even a reversal of young British blacks being heavily influenced by dickhead American gangsta rapper types. Oh, but we can't talk about that either, because that would be "racism". In the same way that the Brits get their panties in a wad here over nationalism, the blacks would get all upset about racial stereotyping. Jesse and Al would throw public tantrums on TV. So we can't talk about the fact that most violent crime is caused by blacks. No one wants to be accused of being a racist. So we just blame the guns instead. Yeah, that's it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 0 #89 October 10, 2007 Quote Both seem to want to export their views to the other. Despite lurking for absolute yonks, I appear to have missed the British saying America should give up their guns. Be a dear and link a thread or two that illustrates that, would you? Quote Didn't we fight a war 231 years ago that brought us to the conclusion that we're better off not being the same political entity? Wasn't it the French that beat the British in the end? With the help of the Spanish and Dutch, of course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #90 October 10, 2007 That reminds me how the old Chief of the London Metropolitan police once mentioning a statistic: 'The vast majority of crimes committed in London are by blacks.' This was a simple statistical fact. The accusations of racism were deafening. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #91 October 10, 2007 QuoteI don't believe I've ever seen John assert that what the UK is doing is wrong..... .....He freely admits that he disagrees with the laws. How exactly do you define wrong? QuoteSaying that the UK's gun control laws have been ineffective in reducing gun crime != "slagging" the UK. Far from being "misguided", the Home Office stats themselves bear it out. Firstly - that depends on how you read the stats, which both sides are guilty of. We still have massively less gun crime here, and figures have gone up, and back down since the ban. NONE of which is large enough numbers to be significant which says a lot in itself. In the UK, shootings are still big news. Secondly, John himself has said, and I agree, that gun control, or the lack of, has no effect on gun crime. Having them - or not having them, there is no benefit. So as i said, it comes to culture. The US has a culture of guns, the UK does not, therefore the ban there was never a big deal. If you reintroduced guns in the UK (not that we ever really had them in the first place) there would almost certainly be an increase in gun related accidents. There ARE also less guns available for opportunistic uses and domestic crimes. Sure, if someone really wants to get one i am sure it is possible, but that doesn't mean that legalisation is the right answer! The fact remains, the people who need guns and traditionally used them in the past, farmers, target shooters etc, can still get them. I think its a shame that the handgun target shooters cannot practice their sport and that some kind of exemption was not written in. FWIW i DO think that the UK has some big problems, which is one reason why i left. Overbearing governance, crowding, taxing EVERYTHING (inheritance tax is one that is a particularly sore spot) cost of living, it goes on. But you ask most people there what bothers them, the fact that they cant carry a gun probably doesn't even make the list.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Almighty 0 #92 October 10, 2007 didn't take long did it.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7038532.stm thank god for guns eh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #93 October 10, 2007 Quote didn't take long did it.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7038532.stm thank god for guns eh Why should I pay the penalty for that person's crime? My guns have never killed anyone...Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Almighty 0 #94 October 10, 2007 Quote Quote didn't take long did it.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7038532.stm thank god for guns eh Why should I pay the penalty for that person's crime? My guns have never killed anyone... same for any gun that hasn't been used yet to kill somebody... every gun starts out as one that hasn't killed anybody why should pay the penalty? because life is shit sometimes and you've just got to "suck it up cupcake" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Almighty 0 #95 October 10, 2007 oh... and how many school gun massacres have there been in England since we banned hand guns? and how many have you had sine England banned hand guns? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #96 October 10, 2007 It's people like you that make me glad we are a nation of laws, not of mob sentiments.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #97 October 10, 2007 Different cultures. You cant compare it. Even if we hadn't banned handguns i strongly suspect the chance of us having any shootings is substantially less.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Almighty 0 #98 October 10, 2007 A nation of laws that control guns, laws that stop them from being used in school massacres? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Almighty 0 #99 October 10, 2007 QuoteIt's people like you that make me glad we are a nation of laws, not of mob sentiments. How long do you think we'll have to wait until the NEXT massacre (or attempred one at least) then? I think this attempted one was overdue...aren't you running at about 3 a year or something? perhaps you could clarify exactly how many a year you're having...cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #100 October 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteIt's people like you that make me glad we are a nation of laws, not of mob sentiments. How long do you think we'll have to wait until the NEXT massacre (or attempred one at least) then? I think this attempted one was overdue...aren't you running at about 3 a year or something? perhaps you could clarify exactly how many a year you're having...cheers Why punish me for another's crimes? If one person drives drunk and kills multiple people, do we ban alcohol or cars? Again, keep your laws. We like ours, nor do we care if you dislike how we implement ours...Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
