Who is middle class?

[NCclimber 0]

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The government site you reference concentrates on money as the defining factor.

I agree with the poster who mentioned "class" as the defining factor. I think what you do, how well you are educated, how well you speak, etc. are the defining factors.

Did you know that words (or even terms) can have different definitions?

The term "middle class" in OP was obviously about financial well-being.
Perhaps you could comment on the topic addressed in the OP.

[wmw999 2,558]

I think middle class is how you live, and to some degree how content you are with it. Money, along with choices, buys how you live.

So some people can consider themselves middle class with a much lower income than others. Because of life choices. Where to live, what's enough, etc.

Public media help to drive living standards. But most people in the USA have a rising standard of living, even if incomes aren't rising. They have more stuff. What they dont' always realize is that all that stuff has to be maintained, which costs in time, energy, space, and money.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,115]

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The government site you reference concentrates on money as the defining factor.

I agree with the poster who mentioned "class" as the defining factor. I think what you do, how well you are educated, how well you speak, etc. are the defining factors.

Did you know that words (or even terms) can have different definitions?

The term "middle class" in OP was obviously about financial well-being.
Perhaps you could comment on the topic addressed in the OP.

You really should take a course on set theory.
A class is a collection of sets (or sometimes other mathematical objects) that can be unambiguously defined by a property that all its members share. Some classes are sets, for instance the class of all integers that are even, but others are not, for instance the class of all ordinal numbers or the class of all sets. Classes that are not sets are called proper classes

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,115]

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I think middle class is how you live, and to some degree how content you are with it. Money, along with choices, buys how you live.

So some people can consider themselves middle class with a much lower income than others. Because of life choices. Where to live, what's enough, etc.

Public media help to drive living standards. But most people in the USA have a rising standard of living, even if incomes aren't rising. They have more stuff. What they dont' always realize is that all that stuff has to be maintained, which costs in time, energy, space, and money.

Wendy W.

Accumulating "stuff" and believing it confers status is a mark of the nouveau riche.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[vortexring 0]

People with that mentality have no class - their crass.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[NCclimber 0]

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You really should take a course on set theory.
A class is a collection of sets (or sometimes other mathematical objects) that can be unambiguously defined by a property that all its members share. Some classes are sets, for instance the class of all integers that are even, but others are not, for instance the class of all ordinal numbers or the class of all sets. Classes that are not sets are called proper classes

Does this have anything (relevant) to do with the subject of the OP?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Housing is a basic need. If you can't afford your rent, you can't be considered middle class.

Housing is a basic need. However, choice of housing isn't. And what's considered to be big enough has gotten a lot bigger over the years.

In Texas, sure. But around here? Most houses predate WWI. The land mass isn't expanding. It's only in the outer outer suburbst that lots of new buildings are rolling out, and even those tend to be small due to the land cost.

The floor on housing is close to $1000/month, unless you share with others, and even then it's going to be 600 or 700 a head. So the choice you have is to leave town to a different metropolitan area. (LA, Fresno, Sacramento?) That costs money too.

At some point the Bay Area will face a crisis when it is impossible to support the lower class, or even the lower middle class. This will impact the service industry, the teaching world, the police, firemen...they all can't live in Tracy or Stockton and commute 80 miles one way to here. Hopefully I can cash out and retire elsewhere when it happens.

[kallend 2,115]

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You really should take a course on set theory.
A class is a collection of sets (or sometimes other mathematical objects) that can be unambiguously defined by a property that all its members share. Some classes are sets, for instance the class of all integers that are even, but others are not, for instance the class of all ordinal numbers or the class of all sets. Classes that are not sets are called proper classes

Does this have anything (relevant) to do with the subject of the OP?

from the OP:

"Who IS middle class, and what makes you that?"

If you weren't so preoccupied with scoring points off me, you could pay attention.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,115]

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At some point the Bay Area will face a crisis when it is impossible to support the lower class, or even the lower middle class. This will impact the service industry, the teaching world, the police, firemen...they all can't live in Tracy or Stockton and commute 80 miles one way to here. Hopefully I can cash out and retire elsewhere when it happens.

Do you consider police, firemen and teachers to be lower or lower middle class?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[vortexring 0]

That's exactly what's happening in the UK. Our PM promised 3 million new houses built within the next 10 years or so, to deal with the problem.

Can't exactly see that happening. Only first time buyers will be the people who will benefit.

So it won't happen.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[wmw999 2,558]

John, I live in Texas. We kinda define nouveau riche , and it's damn classy as long as there's big blonde hair and a boob job involved

That said, social class is probably more fluid, and tied to money, here in the US than in GB. You can learn to behave like someone with class, and in all but the bluest of blueblood US organizations, it'll get you through the class door.

You can join the Junior League, go to charity functions (and pay money), make sure your kid goes to the right college (which will go a way towards guaranteeing their future) and marry someone rich. That's what upper class people do, right?

The super-upper-class are in a different world, but that's a much smaller piece of the social pie.

The social registers of the 19th & early 20th centuries were a way of trying to limit class mobility.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,558]

Class ties into social and economic power, too. The Skull & Bones discussion makes that clear. And, well, money can help to buy both of those in the US, but it doesn't guarantee them.

Of course, people who feel powerful, even if they're only powerful in a small world, are probably happier than people who feel powerless, which is going to impact their self-perception of where they sit in the socio-economic matrix.

It's fun to play with the aspects of society, particularly a fairly fluid one like the US American society.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,115]

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John, I live in Texas. We kinda define nouveau riche , and it's damn classy as long as there's big blonde hair and a boob job involved

YOU don't have big hair. I don't know about the other.

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That said, social class is probably more fluid, and tied to money, here in the US than in GB. You can learn to behave like someone with class, and in all but the bluest of blueblood US organizations, it'll get you through the class door.

You can join the Junior League, go to charity functions (and pay money), make sure your kid goes to the right college (which will go a way towards guaranteeing their future) and marry someone rich. That's what upper class people do, right?

The super-upper-class are in a different world, but that's a much smaller piece of the social pie.

The social registers of the 19th & early 20th centuries were a way of trying to limit class mobility.

Wendy W.

The Bohemian Grove Club (for the high and mighty)is out of financial reach of most scientists and college profs, but a bunch are invited as guests every year which indicates something about their status in society.

Musicians like Daniel Barenboim and Itzhak Perlman became wealthy AFTER they had established their status in society.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PLFXpert 0]

Perception is relative.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kelpdiver 2]

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At some point the Bay Area will face a crisis when it is impossible to support the lower class, or even the lower middle class. This will impact the service industry, the teaching world, the police, firemen...they all can't live in Tracy or Stockton and commute 80 miles one way to here. Hopefully I can cash out and retire elsewhere when it happens.

Do you consider police, firemen and teachers to be lower or lower middle class?

Average teacher salaries clearly point to that. Cops who can log a lot of OT can do very well (a few making more than the mayor), but most officers won't do so well. I'm not sure where the firemen are on the pay scale, but I suspect unless they're a dual income family, they're not buying much property either. Quite a few of the SFPD and SFFD folks live across the bay out to parts where it's possible to have a family home. Attempts to mandate local residency have been dropped quickly because it isn't practical.

[joedirt 0]

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Good debt? College loans that will pay off in the future.
Bad debt? Credit cards.
Good debt? Mortgages.
Bad Debt? Mortgages being treated like credit cards.

Yeah, good start

Best debt = debt that produces passive income.

Poor people live paycheck to paycheck,
Middle class gets in consumer debt,
Rich people get into income producing debt.

[Amazon 7]

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You can learn to behave like someone with class, and in all but the bluest of blueblood US organizations, it'll get you through the class door.

It cant get people thru the DAR or the UDAC doors.. although some of us choose to avoid those doors like the plague.
My mother and my aunts cant believe I dont want to become a member...nope.. not my thing at all

[kallend 2,115]

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At some point the Bay Area will face a crisis when it is impossible to support the lower class, or even the lower middle class. This will impact the service industry, the teaching world, the police, firemen...they all can't live in Tracy or Stockton and commute 80 miles one way to here. Hopefully I can cash out and retire elsewhere when it happens.

Do you consider police, firemen and teachers to be lower or lower middle class?

Average teacher salaries clearly point to that. Cops who can log a lot of OT can do very well (a few making more than the mayor), but most officers won't do so well. I'm not sure where the firemen are on the pay scale, but I suspect unless they're a dual income family, they're not buying much property either. Quite a few of the SFPD and SFFD folks live across the bay out to parts where it's possible to have a family home. Attempts to mandate local residency have been dropped quickly because it isn't practical.

So you clearly equate class or status with income.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Average teacher salaries clearly point to that. Cops who can log a lot of OT can do very well (a few making more than the mayor), but most officers won't do so well. I'm not sure where the firemen are on the pay scale, but I suspect unless they're a dual income family, they're not buying much property either. Quite a few of the SFPD and SFFD folks live across the bay out to parts where it's possible to have a family home. Attempts to mandate local residency have been dropped quickly because it isn't practical.

So you clearly equate class or status with income.

While you've attempted to detail the conversation with this, the subject here has clearly been related to finances, so no surprise that the delineation is about income.

But if we were to take your sidetrack, yeah, I'd say university professors in Illinois have no class.

[kallend 2,115]

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Average teacher salaries clearly point to that. Cops who can log a lot of OT can do very well (a few making more than the mayor), but most officers won't do so well. I'm not sure where the firemen are on the pay scale, but I suspect unless they're a dual income family, they're not buying much property either. Quite a few of the SFPD and SFFD folks live across the bay out to parts where it's possible to have a family home. Attempts to mandate local residency have been dropped quickly because it isn't practical.

So you clearly equate class or status with income.

While you've attempted to detail the conversation with this, the subject here has clearly been related to finances, so no surprise that the delineation is about income.

But if we were to take your sidetrack, yeah, I'd say university professors in Illinois have no class.

Since the OP asked ""Who IS middle class, and what makes you that?", my comments are directly addressing her question.
As vortexring suggested, those who simply equate money with class are crass. I agree with that.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nigel99 584]

I don't think that money plays a major role in "class". I have a friend who was a bank manager who defined himself as working class. Here in the UK, a number of people are proud to be working class and I have observed the following references:

Chavs - our equivalent of trailer trash (although people like Vic Beckham who is loaded is often placed in this category)
Working class - people who work for a living.
Toffs- inbreds who live off the sweat of others.

I find the whole concept quite interesting especially having relocated from a country where we were relatively wealthy, to a place where we are towards the middle of the foodchain in terms of income. I find that amongst people who define themselves as "working class" there is a general apathy towards learning and self development lack of competitive spirit and a general resentment towards people who have more than them.

This resentment is a key identifier and I would define a middle class person as someone who believes that to have a better lifestyle/income they need to work harder and or obtain better eduction, whereas lower class/working class see others wealth as unfair and believe that the wealth should be "shared" more equally.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[NCclimber 0]

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I find the whole concept quite interesting especially having relocated from a country where we were relatively wealthy, to a place where we are towards the middle of the foodchain in terms of income. I find that amongst people who define themselves as "working class" there is a general apathy towards learning and self development lack of competitive spirit and a general resentment towards people who have more than them.

This resentment is a key identifier and I would define a middle class person as someone who believes that to have a better lifestyle/income they need to work harder and or obtain better eduction, whereas lower class/working class see others wealth as unfair and believe that the wealth should be "shared" more equally.

LOL, Nigel. I don't know if that last part was intentional, but (generally speaking) you described a key difference between the conservative mindset (to have a better lifestyle/income they need to work harder and or obtain better eduction) and that of liberals (see others wealth as unfair and believe that the wealth should be "shared" more equally)

Either way, it's a great post.

[NCclimber 0]

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But if we were to take your sidetrack, yeah, I'd say university professors in Illinois have no class.

Since the OP asked ""Who IS middle class, and what makes you that?", my comments are directly addressing her question.

Bullshit. Aside from some pendantic blather about one way to draw distinctions between groups, you haven't said squat about "Who IS middle class and what makes you that".

I can do pedantic blather too... middle class is the group of people who are not upper class nor lower class. Yeah... I'll back myself on the back for speaking to the question, while doing absolutely nothing the further it.

Yea Me!!!

I find it laughable that some people can't can't come to terms with groups being defined by financial well being.

Get over yourself.

[wmw999 2,558]

The Brits in the discussion seem to be far more likely to disregard money as a part of class. Maybe that's a noticeable difference between the two societies. Since "class" is a social distinction, it is very likely to be different for different societies, and I certainly didn't specify whose society.

But nigel's definition does resonate, even if it does, to some extent, disregard money.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[pirana 0]

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Britney Spears and Paris Hilton, on the other hand, have lots of money and no class at all.

Britney - definitely a Mid Prole at best. She's just trash that got a brief fling with fame. Paris has staying power, and actually exudes a good amount of class. She is actually an Upper Out Of Sight that has taken to slumming (mostly in friends but also in some behaviors). The young very well to do's often do this, but usually in the end find the comfy confines of their blue blooded past reeling them back in.

One of the more reliable indicators of class is language/vocabulary. I know it might qualify as torture, but listen to each of them speak. There is a huge difference.

A good example - the word or words used for car. Proles simply call it a car, because that is the limit of their vocabulary. Upper proles to middle use car and auto. More sylables equal more sophisticated in their mind. Upper middles use vehicle or automobile. Uppers use car, because they appreciate brevity whenever using it does not sacrifice accuracy.

Then you have the hired car. The lowest use limo, further up you find limousine (more sylables and a neat faux foriegn sound), and at the very top it is still car; as in: James, we'll be needing the car around 11:00.

Pregnant is a good one to listen for too. Proles like cute little euphemisms like bun in the oven or the stories with the stork. Middles retain some cuteness with prego, but usually prefer nice safe terms like expecting. (Expecting what? Is it such a dirty word you can't just say it?) They are also keen on really safe sounding euphemisms like in a family way. (That phrase alone might capture all you need to know about how uptight the Middles really are). Uppers simply call it what it is - pregnant.

If you were limited to only one indicator of class, language would be the best bet. It would not be perfect because there are so many factors to consider, but listening to someone speak for even just a few minutes, you would not miss by much or very often.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley