Christian abusers force underage women to marry

[billvon 3,132]

From canada.com:
====================
Court hears former legal adviser urge Jeffs to continue underage polygamy

ST. GEORGE, Utah — The prosecution abruptly wrapped up its case against polygamist prophet Warren Jeffs Tuesday morning after playing a tape of Jeffs's former legal adviser predicting a criminal prosecution like this one.

Jeffs, who leads the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is charged with two counts of being an accomplice to rape in the arranged marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old first cousin. Jeffs officiated at the marriage.

On the tape, former Colorado City town marshal Sam Barlow urged FLDS to continue to practise polygamy and the marriages of underaged girls.
=====================

What do you want to bet that some of the FLDS folks involved in this are named after apostles? Any takers?

And there are thousands of Christian bishops in the US. I have heard only a handful condemn these compatriots of theirs! Isn't it incredible that the rest silently support them? For if they don't condemn the FLDS, they surely must support their fellow Christians.

[Guest]

Quote

From canada.com:
====================
Court hears former legal adviser urge Jeffs to continue underage polygamy

ST. GEORGE, Utah — The prosecution abruptly wrapped up its case against polygamist prophet Warren Jeffs Tuesday morning after playing a tape of Jeffs's former legal adviser predicting a criminal prosecution like this one.

Jeffs, who leads the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is charged with two counts of being an accomplice to rape in the arranged marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old first cousin. Jeffs officiated at the marriage.

On the tape, former Colorado City town marshal Sam Barlow urged FLDS to continue to practise polygamy and the marriages of underaged girls.
=====================

What do you want to bet that some of the FLDS folks involved in this are named after apostles? Any takers?

And there are thousands of Christian bishops in the US. I have heard only a handful condemn these compatriots of theirs! Isn't it incredible that the rest silently support them? For if they don't condemn the FLDS, they surely must support their fellow Christians.

Nice troll, Bill.

The Fundamentalist LDS is nothing but a sub-cult of a bigger cult, which the parent cult has condemned in public on numerous occasions.

I don't see any mobs cheering in the streets over atrocities committed by these people, either.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[1969912 0]

Got pictures of the chicks?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[DSE 5]

Yeah, most of em' look the same.
the coincidental twist to this story, is that some of the boys from this religion have spun off and two of them are regular skydivers, one of them an AFFI/TI, and a great friend.
http://indiescribe.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bountifu.jpg


http://media.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2005/may/polygamy/rulonfull.jpg


http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/report/31/ir117_holm_family.jpg


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/29/national/poly.184.4.fam.jpg

The women almost invariably pile a huge bang on their forhead, symbolizing enlightenment.
Their dresses are almost always very plain in public. little to no makeup, and often quite heavy.
They are parasites on the State welfare system, and part of their religion encourages them to take as much as they can get.
While the LDS church disavows a relationship with the FLDS and their corporate entity (UEP), it simply is a sham. Mormons still teach that they'll once again live in polygamy (and that prophecy is loosely tied to having a Mormon in the white house), and believe that men need many wives to perpetuate the religion, and bring to life those souls that still haven't made their way out of heaven.
The midwife that testified this afternoon was pretty intense, telling of how the 15 year old "wife" had two miscarriages, and she didn't want the "father" (her cousin) to know she had gotten pregnant during one of the rapes.

[AWL71 0]

Quote

Yeah, most of em' look the same.
the coincidental twist to this story, is that some of the boys from this religion have spun off and two of them are regular skydivers, one of them an AFFI/TI, and a great friend.
http://indiescribe.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bountifu.jpg


http://media.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2005/may/polygamy/rulonfull.jpg


http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/report/31/ir117_holm_family.jpg


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/29/national/poly.184.4.fam.jpg

The women almost invariably pile a huge bang on their forhead, symbolizing enlightenment.
Their dresses are almost always very plain in public. little to no makeup, and often quite heavy.
They are parasites on the State welfare system, and part of their religion encourages them to take as much as they can get.
While the LDS church disavows a relationship with the FLDS and their corporate entity (UEP), it simply is a sham. Mormons still teach that they'll once again live in polygamy (and that prophecy is loosely tied to having a Mormon in the white house), and believe that men need many wives to perpetuate the religion, and bring to life those souls that still haven't made their way out of heaven.
The midwife that testified this afternoon was pretty intense, telling of how the 15 year old "wife" had two miscarriages, and she didn't want the "father" (her cousin) to know she had gotten pregnant during one of the rapes.

You are so full of crap and you do not know what you are talking about. I am a Mormon and we do not believe that we will once again live in Polygamy and there is no prophecy about a Mormom being in the White House. Get your facts straight.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[Zipp0 1]

Quote

Quote

Yeah, most of em' look the same.
the coincidental twist to this story, is that some of the boys from this religion have spun off and two of them are regular skydivers, one of them an AFFI/TI, and a great friend.
http://indiescribe.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bountifu.jpg


http://media.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2005/may/polygamy/rulonfull.jpg


http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/report/31/ir117_holm_family.jpg


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/29/national/poly.184.4.fam.jpg

The women almost invariably pile a huge bang on their forhead, symbolizing enlightenment.
Their dresses are almost always very plain in public. little to no makeup, and often quite heavy.
They are parasites on the State welfare system, and part of their religion encourages them to take as much as they can get.
While the LDS church disavows a relationship with the FLDS and their corporate entity (UEP), it simply is a sham. Mormons still teach that they'll once again live in polygamy (and that prophecy is loosely tied to having a Mormon in the white house), and believe that men need many wives to perpetuate the religion, and bring to life those souls that still haven't made their way out of heaven.
The midwife that testified this afternoon was pretty intense, telling of how the 15 year old "wife" had two miscarriages, and she didn't want the "father" (her cousin) to know she had gotten pregnant during one of the rapes.

You are so full of crap and you do not know what you are talking about. I am a Mormon and we do not believe that we will once again live in Polygamy and there is no prophecy about a Mormom being in the White House. Get your facts straight.

Right. You are also taught to deny these beliefs to those outside the faith!

BTW - If I give you my address, can you put me on your "Do not knock on door or leave copies of 'Watchtower' list?"

Although, you Mormons are wising up. There was a hot Mormon chick that came to the door last time. I was going to ask if I got to marry 3 or 4 like her, and what was allowed sexually after marriage, but I just took the magazine and said thanks instead.

I guess I'll never know......

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[DSE 5]

Umm... I do have my facts straight, Joseph Smith prophesied it in 1843. He prophesied that "one day American citizens would be denied their most basic rights and the U.S. Constitution would "hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber." "A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America, such as has never been seen before; for the land will be left without a Supreme Government, and every specie of wickedness will be practiced rampantly in the land. It would then be up to the Mormon people, symbolized by a white horse, to ride in and save the republic from collapsing. I love the Constitution; it was made by the inspiration of God, and it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse."
Of course, all of this was part of a campaign preparation when Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon faith ran for president himself in 1844.

The Salt Lake Tribune and Deseret News, both LDS Church-owned newspapers have had several stories on the prophesy, and professors from BYU (LDS college in Provo) have studied Smith's journals and original writing in the D&C (This prophesy is one of many removed from the original D&C) and determined that Smith meant exactly this; A Mormon would be in the White House to save the Republic. Church spokesman Mike Otterson pointed out that while it is not "official church canon" it is indeed a statement by the founder of the LDS faith.
Orin Hatch used this prophesy when he started his run in 2000 in more than one radio interview in Utah. So did Mitt Romney's father George, when he ran in 68'. (My foster father ran George Romney's campaign in Iowa, FWIW, and is a high rank asshat in the LDS church in SLC, UT)
Back to the prophecy;
While the LDS historical watchdog made up of devout, but open-minded Mormons have felt that it was probably Smith riffing off in one of his frequent modes of braggadocio, they collectively agree that Smith intended it as a prophecy, although later edits of mormon doctrine left it out. "I believe it's true" says Jeff Hartley, executive director of the Utah Republican Party. Hartley goes on to say that Mormons believe in personal revelation as well as revelations for the world through the prophet, so it's unknown exactly what Smith's intent was.
Apologists for the LDS faith believe that the story was proliferated by two men wanting to make money off of Smith's speech in the temple, and so they published a pamphlet to inspire westward dreams of early members of the faith.
Ted Neilsen ran on this particular/peculiar position in more than one election.

Now that we've hopefully disabused the notion that there isn't a prophecy....let's talk about polygamy....

The Edmunds-Tucker Act ended polygamy "officially" in Utah in 1887. The Utah Territory was forced to ratify the Act in order to get Washington to allow statehood to Utah. In spite of the Act, Mormons continued to practice polygamy very quietly, with the last official recorded marriages taking place in 1904, and the last "official" polygamist dying in 1958.
Mormonism still believes, and talks of polygamy in the afterlife, men are 'sealed' to multiple women in this life for purposes of an eternal life' and the Doctrine and Covenants (official/canonized Church scripture) discusses this clearly and explicitly in section 132. Further, according to the Utah Attorney General's office and confirmed by researchers at BYU, approximately 2.5% of those found worshiping in LDS chapels today, are polygamists. Warren Jeffs is not being prosecuted for being a polyg. He's being prosecuted for money laundering, conspiracy to commit rape, malfeasance with taxed monies, and other mostly-financially related charges.

Then there is the Mormon teaching that Christ was a polygamist...
"I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children." (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 2:210)

The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons'" (Jedediah M. Grant, Journal of Discourses, 1:346)

The corporation of the LDS faith today disavows polygamy, trying to separate themselves from what they call "fundamentalist LDS people." They are about as fundamentalist as the US is a colony of Great Britain. Practicing polygs (did I mention that I have a poly family living down the street?) are the same as any member of the LDS faith, paying tithes, attending the same meetings, reading from the exact same four books of scripture.

Finally...if you're truly LDS, then you'd know you aren't supposed to say you are "Mormon" but rather identify yourself as a member of the LDS faith, or of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-Day Saints."
Or as we often refer to, "The Church of Cheese n' rice and Rattle-Day Snakes."

Are my facts straight enough?

[edited to add; if you're really in Lawrenceville, GA, chances are very, very good that my former wife is your children's LDS seminary instructor.]

[AWL71 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Yeah, most of em' look the same.
the coincidental twist to this story, is that some of the boys from this religion have spun off and two of them are regular skydivers, one of them an AFFI/TI, and a great friend.
http://indiescribe.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bountifu.jpg


http://media.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2005/may/polygamy/rulonfull.jpg


http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/report/31/ir117_holm_family.jpg


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/29/national/poly.184.4.fam.jpg

The women almost invariably pile a huge bang on their forhead, symbolizing enlightenment.
Their dresses are almost always very plain in public. little to no makeup, and often quite heavy.
They are parasites on the State welfare system, and part of their religion encourages them to take as much as they can get.
While the LDS church disavows a relationship with the FLDS and their corporate entity (UEP), it simply is a sham. Mormons still teach that they'll once again live in polygamy (and that prophecy is loosely tied to having a Mormon in the white house), and believe that men need many wives to perpetuate the religion, and bring to life those souls that still haven't made their way out of heaven.
The midwife that testified this afternoon was pretty intense, telling of how the 15 year old "wife" had two miscarriages, and she didn't want the "father" (her cousin) to know she had gotten pregnant during one of the rapes.

You are so full of crap and you do not know what you are talking about. I am a Mormon and we do not believe that we will once again live in Polygamy and there is no prophecy about a Mormom being in the White House. Get your facts straight.

Right. You are also taught to deny these beliefs to those outside the faith!

BTW - If I give you my address, can you put me on your "Do not knock on door or leave copies of 'Watchtower' list?"

Although, you Mormons are wising up. There was a hot Mormon chick that came to the door last time. I was going to ask if I got to marry 3 or 4 like her, and what was allowed sexually after marriage, but I just took the magazine and said thanks instead.

I guess I'll never know......

Your post proves my point. You can't even tell the Mormons from the Jehovah Witnesses. You are talking about the Jehovah Witnesses. The Watchtower is their pubication. Get your religions straight.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Damn Douglas you are far more interesting than I had previosly thought.

I had thought you were pretty damned fascinating before.

Keep up the good work

[AWL71 0]

Quote

Umm... I do have my facts straight, Joseph Smith prophesied it in 1843. He prophesied that "one day American citizens would be denied their most basic rights and the U.S. Constitution would "hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber." "A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America, such as has never been seen before; for the land will be left without a Supreme Government, and every specie of wickedness will be practiced rampantly in the land. It would then be up to the Mormon people, symbolized by a white horse, to ride in and save the republic from collapsing. I love the Constitution; it was made by the inspiration of God, and it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse."
Of course, all of this was part of a campaign preparation when Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon faith ran for president himself in 1844.

The Salt Lake Tribune and Deseret News, both LDS Church-owned newspapers have had several stories on the prophesy, and professors from BYU (LDS college in Provo) have studied Smith's journals and original writing in the D&C (This prophesy is one of many removed from the original D&C) and determined that Smith meant exactly this; A Mormon would be in the White House to save the Republic. Church spokesman Mike Otterson pointed out that while it is not "official church canon" it is indeed a statement by the founder of the LDS faith.
Orin Hatch used this prophesy when he started his run in 2000 in more than one radio interview in Utah. So did Mitt Romney's father George, when he ran in 68'. (My foster father ran George Romney's campaign in Iowa, FWIW, and is a high rank asshat in the LDS church in SLC, UT)
Back to the prophecy;
While the LDS historical watchdog made up of devout, but open-minded Mormons have felt that it was probably Smith riffing off in one of his frequent modes of braggadocio, they collectively agree that Smith intended it as a prophecy, although later edits of mormon doctrine left it out. "I believe it's true" says Jeff Hartley, executive director of the Utah Republican Party. Hartley goes on to say that Mormons believe in personal revelation as well as revelations for the world through the prophet, so it's unknown exactly what Smith's intent was.
Apologists for the LDS faith believe that the story was proliferated by two men wanting to make money off of Smith's speech in the temple, and so they published a pamphlet to inspire westward dreams of early members of the faith.
Ted Neilsen ran on this particular/peculiar position in more than one election.

Now that we've hopefully disabused the notion that there isn't a prophecy....let's talk about polygamy....

The Edmunds-Tucker Act ended polygamy "officially" in Utah in 1887. The Utah Territory was forced to ratify the Act in order to get Washington to allow statehood to Utah. In spite of the Act, Mormons continued to practice polygamy very quietly, with the last official recorded marriages taking place in 1904, and the last "official" polygamist dying in 1958.
Mormonism still believes, and talks of polygamy in the afterlife, men are 'sealed' to multiple women in this life for purposes of an eternal life' and the Doctrine and Covenants (official/canonized Church scripture) discusses this clearly and explicitly in section 132. Further, according to the Utah Attorney General's office and confirmed by researchers at BYU, approximately 2.5% of those found worshiping in LDS chapels today, are polygamists. Warren Jeffs is not being prosecuted for being a polyg. He's being prosecuted for money laundering, conspiracy to commit rape, malfeasance with taxed monies, and other mostly-financially related charges.

Then there is the Mormon teaching that Christ was a polygamist...
"I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children." (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 2:210)

The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons'" (Jedediah M. Grant, Journal of Discourses, 1:346)

The corporation of the LDS faith today disavows polygamy, trying to separate themselves from what they call "fundamentalist LDS people." They are about as fundamentalist as the US is a colony of Great Britain. Practicing polygs (did I mention that I have a poly family living down the street?) are the same as any member of the LDS faith, paying tithes, attending the same meetings, reading from the exact same four books of scripture.

Finally...if you're truly LDS, then you'd know you aren't supposed to say you are "Mormon" but rather identify yourself as a member of the LDS faith, or of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-Day Saints."
Or as we often refer to, "The Church of Cheese n' rice and Rattle-Day Snakes."

Are my facts straight enough?

Not really. Just because a member says something does not make it doctrine. I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints all my life and i know what i believe. But i am sure you know better than I. It is obvious you have an axe to grind with the LDS church so grind away. Does not bother me a bit.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[Zipp0 1]

Mormons, latter-day saints, Jehovah's witnesses - you people are all the same to me......

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[billvon 3,132]

>The Fundamentalist LDS is nothing but a sub-cult of a bigger cult, which
>the parent cult has condemned in public on numerous occasions.

So ONE christian organization has condemned them, while the rest stand in silent support.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen you publish anything that denounces them publically! And if you could send me a pointer to the place you condemned what your fellow christian Timothy McVeigh did, that would be great.

[AWL71 0]

Quote

>The Fundamentalist LDS is nothing but a sub-cult of a bigger cult, which
>the parent cult has condemned in public on numerous occasions.

So ONE christian organization has condemned them, while the rest stand in silent support.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen you publish anything that denounces them publically! And if you could send me a pointer to the place you condemned what your fellow christian Timothy McVeigh did, that would be great.[/replly

What is your point? Timothy McVeigh was a nut job. Are you saying that the christian faith is to blame for his crime. If an aethiest commits a crime do we blame the fact that he was an aethiest? Don't think so. People are responsible for their own actions, their faith is not to blame.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

• Quote

[DSE 5]

Uh....Joseph Smith isn't a "member." He's the founding father. It's a "fact that he had the revelation." The only fact in dispute is whether it was a church revelation or a personal one. BYU says it was personal, church historians say it was church-related.
Uh....Gordon Hinckley isn't "just a member" he's the current president (and alleged prophet." Did you catch his Larry King interview?
BYU isn't just "some member of the church" but rather the church's official school, and historical keeper and researcher. They confirm this too.
In other words, it's not just some "member of the church" saying this stuff, it's the hierarchy of the church.

As far as polygamy...buddy, that's church scripture. It's not _my_ interpretation, it's what is taught in Gospel Doctrine every Sunday morning. If you're not aware of this, you're not attending.

C'mon, I dare you. Factually dispute *any* aspect of my post. I used your scriptures....so you can't refute those.
If you've been a member "all my life" then you've likely received a temple recommend at some point, and have gone through at least your own personal covenants where you've been promised wives in the next life. You are wearing garments, aren't you? If not, then you haven't been through the temple.
Have you been told your wife's secret name that she is to speak to you in order to pass through the veil?

You live in Georgia. That's a real-world place. I've attended church meetings in your area. They're tame n' lame compared to services in Utah. I live in the very bowels of the LDS faith, and read their newspapers every morning. All of my foster family are LDS, all of them bishops or higher. One is a GA.
Seems I know more about your faith than you do.

As a side note, did you see that after 150 years of denial, the LDS Church finally admitted culpability for the Mountain Meadow Massacre? Wow. They excommunicated a few dozen people for saying the Church was responsible, they killed John D Lee for saying the church was responsible, but now they've owned up to it, and apologized for it.

Mormons have been taught for 150 years that the church wasn't involved. I wonder how quickly they'll change all those history books?

Yes, I have an axe to grind with the LDS faith. Having an axe to grind does not mean that what I say isn't correct. Sometimes, there are axes that need to be ground in life; it keeps society sharp.

[billvon 3,132]

>Are you saying that the christian faith is to blame for his crime.

No - that would be as absurd as saying that Muslims bear responsibility for the actions of Al Qaeda.

>People are responsible for their own actions, their faith is not to blame.

Yes! You get it. I wish more people did.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

What is your point? Timothy McVeigh was a nut job. Are you saying that the christian faith is to blame for his crime. If an aethiest commits a crime do we blame the fact that he was an aethiest? Don't think so. People are responsible for their own actions, their faith is not to blame.

hook, line, sinker,

Bill's analogy was so blatant (yet so VERY tangential), I don't believe you just fed him what he wanted. (even if his non-sequitor point was a good one)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JackC 0]

Quote

>Are you saying that the christian faith is to blame for his crime.

No - that would be as absurd as saying that Muslims bear responsibility for the actions of Al Qaeda.

>People are responsible for their own actions, their faith is not to blame.

Yes! You get it. I wish more people did.

I dunno, isn't someones faith a motivating factor? It's true to say that people vary greatly on how they interpret the basis of their faith but on a personal level, faith can be a very strong motivating factor.

For example, you can't hold your average muslim responsible for Al Qaeda, but without Islam Al Qaeda's number one stated motivation wouldn't exist.

You could argue that it's a corruption of a belief system that leads to crimes such as this but I don't think you can say that the belief system plays no part at all.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I dunno, isn't someones faith a motivating factor? It's true to say that people vary greatly on how they interpret the basis of their faith but on a personal level, faith can be a very strong motivating factor.

Yeah especially those fundie types that shoot doctors to keep them from working in family planning clinics or just blowing them up.

And you just gotta love all that LOVE that the christian right has for gay people.. so much so that some of them beat the gay boys to death to "save" them from their sinful ways.

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Quote

>Are you saying that the christian faith is to blame for his crime.

No - that would be as absurd as saying that Muslims bear responsibility for the actions of Al Qaeda.

>People are responsible for their own actions, their faith is not to blame.

Yes! You get it. I wish more people did.

I dunno, isn't someones faith a motivating factor? It's true to say that people vary greatly on how they interpret the basis of their faith but on a personal level, faith can be a very strong motivating factor.

For example, you can't hold your average muslim responsible for Al Qaeda, but without Islam Al Qaeda's number one stated motivation wouldn't exist.

You could argue that it's a corruption of a belief system that leads to crimes such as this but I don't think you can say that the belief system plays no part at all.

Bingo. Al Qaeda embraces a militant, dogmatic and orthodox form of Islamism. Their agenda is driven by the Islamic faith.

Conversely, there is no evidence that Timothy McVeigh was religiously motivated when he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Conversely, there is no evidence that Timothy McVeigh was religiously motivated when he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

But Rudolph certainly was in bombing clinics and the Olympic Park.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/05/31/rudolph.main/index.html


http://www.internetweekly.org/iwr/parody_free_eric_rudolph.html

[micro 0]

Quote

Quote

What is your point? Timothy McVeigh was a nut job. Are you saying that the christian faith is to blame for his crime. If an aethiest commits a crime do we blame the fact that he was an aethiest? Don't think so. People are responsible for their own actions, their faith is not to blame.

hook, line, sinker,

Did someone say.... sinker?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[DSE 5]

Quote

Bingo. Al Qaeda embraces a militant, dogmatic and orthodox form of Islamism. Their agenda is driven by the Islamic faith.

This is the crux of much of the discussion, I think.
The FLDS and LDS polygamists that have followed Rulon Allred, Ervil LeBaron, and now Warren Jeffs, follow the absolute, fundamental teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They use the same books, the same prayers, same sacrament, same everything, except that they are frozen in time prior to the passage of the Edmunds-Tucker Act. For them, the law never existed. And most importantly, the LDS-dominated legislature in Utah has made it a loud point to not prosecute polygamy in Utah, except in very blatant cases such as when Tom Green (polygamist) went on Larry King and boasted of his three wives, and it was learned that he'd married and impregnated his second wife when she was 14. Green was just recently released from prison, but the charges weren't related to polygamy.
In other words, the State of Utah, run *entirely* by the LDS faith (even the liquor commission is all LDS, none of them drink but they "advocate" for liquor laws and licenses), have chosen to not prosecute this crime. In silence, they've allowed and arguably encouraged the practice. Now, we're hearing more and more about young women being raped, forced into marriage at ages 12-16, and having children at ages 13-18. Depending on which side of the fence you're standing on, the girls are either "ok with it because God wills it" or they're being raped and forced.
Given the violence between the sects, given the sheer number of women now coming forward, given that the entire legal forces in both Arizona and Utah polyg communities have been stripped of authority due to lack of response to calls of domestic abuse and violence...it's likely true that the leadership of the FLDS faith have been forcing young women into servitude.

so that said...if the FLDS faith is identical to the LDS faith, and the LDS faith have chosen to not aggressively separate themselves from the FLDS practice of polygamy...aren't they really the same?
That alone is frightening. Now consider that one of these people is running for President, with one of the largest owners of media distribution in the world at his side/supporting him.

Conversely, maybe we'll see the Edmunds-Tucker Act repealed, and we can all have mass orgies.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

So ONE christian organization has condemned them, while the rest stand in silent support.

Bill have I told you lately that I love you.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[AWL71 0]

so that said...if the FLDS faith is identical to the LDS faith, and the LDS faith have chosen to not aggressively separate themselves from the FLDS practice of polygamy...aren't they really the same?
That alone is frightening. Now consider that one of these people is running for President, with one of the largest owners of media distribution in the world at his side/supporting him.

IF is the key word there...They are not identical and not the same and you know it. Talk about fear and loathing....

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[DSE 5]

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IF is the key word there...They are not identical and not the same and you know it. Talk about fear and loathing....

Please define specifically and exactly how the FLDS faith and the LDS faith are different, excepting for the acceptance of the legal status of polygamy. Once that separation is explained, we'll address the issue of men being sealed to multiple women in the LDS temple even as I type this and you read it. Please cite specific scriptural differences, not ecclesiastical differences, because it's quite easy to say "Well, as members of the LDS faith, we believe Gordon Hinckley is a prophet, seer, and revelator and we know Warren Jeffs isn't." I assure you, the exact same comment is made by FLDS members about Jeffs. In fact, that was part of testimony in court just yesterday. So...opinions of ecclesiastical difference are fairly subjective, let's stick to facts, please.

I'll gladly change the word "if" to "since" if it helps others make more sense of it.