Clinton Health Care....Part II

[willard 0]

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20819827/

Require health insurance? So much for individual rights. At least Bush waited until he was in office before he started messing with our rights.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Watch out before she does a Darth Vader on you!

[AWL71 0]

Government has no business in health care. Your health care is your responsibility. Madicare is already in place for low income families. It is Hillary's way to seduce the low income vote that Democarats rely on.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[billvon 3,114]

>Government has no business in health care.

Yes, it does, because most americans feel compassion, and we are not willing to let a 20 year old woman bleed to death in the street - even if she can't pay for care, and even if the injury was her fault. And that means that we DO have business in health care as a country.

Turn it around. Let's say a hospital turned away that woman and she died on the sidewalk. Many people (including you, I'd wager) would feel that an injustice had been done. Some would call out for people to be fired, for the hospital to be penalized for its barbaric act of greed.

Well, the end result of that sort of thing is that we are going to end up paying for public health care to some degree. So no matter how many millions of words flow from either side of the debate, we have a degree of socialized medicine here already.

And as a famous man once said - we've now determined what it is, now we're just trying to set the price.

[AWL71 0]

I was referring to traditional health insurance. I don't think anyone should be turned away from an emergency room in case of an accident. They should get the care they need and make arrangements to pay the hospital for services rendered.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Let's say a hospital turned away that woman and she died on the sidewalk. Many people (including you, I'd wager) would feel that an injustice had been done. Some would call out for people to be fired, for the hospital to be penalized for its barbaric act of greed.

WOW Bill, thanks for the drama. Now what does that have to do with the BITCH trying to be in charge of my health care. Here is the question I want to know. How the hell are going to pay for it? If my taxes go up at all I dont want it. The govt controls to much of my money as it is.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Quote

Let's say a hospital turned away that woman and she died on the sidewalk. Many people (including you, I'd wager) would feel that an injustice had been done. Some would call out for people to be fired, for the hospital to be penalized for its barbaric act of greed.

WOW Bill, thanks for the drama.

[billvon 3,114]

>Now what does that have to do with the BITCH trying to be in charge
>of my health care.

WE HAVE SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE NOW. That's the point. The question is - how do we best implement it?

>How the hell are going to pay for it? If my taxes go up at all I dont want it.

That's the $64,000 question. Right now you pay for it by higher taxes, increased health care premiums and poorer care. Might be worthwhile to figure out how to balance that a little better, eh?

[kallend 2,147]

Quote

*** If my taxes go up at all I dont want it. .

How do you feel about paying for the war in Iraq?

Are you OK with paying to kill people, but not to care for them?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,587]

Is it the fact that it's Hillary Clinton more than anything?

Right now health care and insurance costs is a HUGE problem facing a lot of companies; the cost growth is well into the double digits for most companies, and few employees will accept double digit increases in their rates. OTOH, companies can only absorb the costs for so long.

So something is broken. I can't see our going to a system where more money can't buy you better care (this IS America after all, and more money can buy you just about anything). But I would like to see a little less money spent on paperwork, and a little less money on advertising, and have that money invested instead in a more standardized basic level of care.

So that maybe everyone gets (for example) 2 office visits per year, and immunizations, and reasonably-priced generic antibiotics and a couple of other classes of basic pharmaceuticals.

Which means that rich people can still get the designer drugs, and preferred service, and the like. But maybe, just maybe, fewer people would take their kids to the ER for a cold. Not that no one would, but fewer.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

Is it the fact that it's Hillary Clinton more than anything?

> She's a bitch! She's a carpet-bagger! She's uh, uh, ....got fat thighs! Yeah, that too! >

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Right now you pay for it by higher taxes***

At a cost they claim to be $110b a year do you think they will go down? Hell no they will go through the roof!

increased health care premiums

Quote

And how will the govt care be any cheaper? Your taxes will skyrocket.

and poorer care.

Quote

Poor care? I just went to the Doc and the care has been great. What is so poor about the care we in the US receive?

Might be worthwhile to figure out how to balance that a little better, eh?
***


Figure out the balance? Good grief! Why is it when the govt says they want to take over HC so many just roll over and start sucking the govt tit? Everything those assholes touch turns into a red tape bureaucratic nightmare. Look at all the money the FAA, IRS, TSA, DOT, FEMA and how efficient those agencies are and tell me how the govt can run health care.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

How do you feel about paying for the war in Iraq?

Are you OK with paying to kill people, but not to care for them?

Hey John, we are talking health care here! But to answer your question, Yes I am ok. Some people need to be killed. Is that the answer you wanted. Now go find one of the 100's of Iraq threads and beat your drum over there.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Is it the fact that it's Hillary Clinton more than anything?

That has nothing to do with it! I am against Obama, Romney, Edwards. If Fred comes out with this crazy govt health care idea I will be against him to. I dont want the govt anywhere near my health. Those asshats cannot even deliver a bottle of water to people on New Orleans after a storm. How the hell can they take care of me.

Quote

Right now health care and insurance costs is a HUGE problem facing a lot of companies; the cost growth is well into the double digits for most companies, and few employees will accept double digit increases in their rates. OTOH, companies can only absorb the costs for so long.

And how willthe govt be any better? Look at property taxes. They have a budget but always overspend then come to the people and raise there taxes. Even though there is so much corruption waste.

Quote

So something is broken. I can't see our going to a system where more money can't buy you better care (this IS America after all, and more money can buy you just about anything). But I would like to see a little less money spent on paperwork, and a little less money on advertising, and have that money invested instead in a more standardized basic level of care.

I agree here but I truly belive the govt will fail at all points. I havent seen the govt run anything lately worth a damn.

Quote

So that maybe everyone gets (for example) 2 office visits per year, and immunizations, and reasonably-priced generic antibiotics and a couple of other classes of basic pharmaceuticals.

So why cannot they do that already? A basic DR visit is fairly cheap for a check up.

Quote

Which means that rich people can still get the designer drugs, and preferred service, and the like. But maybe, just maybe, fewer people would take their kids to the ER for a cold. Not that no one would, but fewer.

I think people would still go to the ER for the sniffles. It's just how things work.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

> She's a bitch! She's a carpet-bagger! She's uh, uh, ....got fat thighs! Yeah, that too! >

Yeah! What he said!

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,114]

>At a cost they claim to be $110b a year do you think they will go down?

Overall? I think they will gradually go up no matter what we do. Not because they hate you and want your money, but because YOU are going to want more care.

>And how will the govt care be any cheaper? Your taxes will skyrocket.

Government spending IS skyrocketing; you may not have noticed. That's a problem. So are healthcare costs. That's another problem. We need a solution to both, not just a lot of calling people bitches.

>Look at all the money the FAA, IRS, TSA, DOT, FEMA and how efficient
>those agencies are and tell me how the govt can run health care.

Look at the current state of hospitals, HMO's, insurance companies and managed care and tell me how private industry can run health care.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Overall? I think they will gradually go up no matter what we do. Not because they hate you and want your money, but because YOU are going to want more care.

Want more? I dont understand what your getting at here. Why would I want to go to the Doc more? The cost will go up because it will turn into a Govt wasteland like all of there departments turn in to.

Here is what I bet will happen. My employer will see the govt giving out health care and tell me to go there. They will cancel me. Will they give me the extra money they spent on my health insurance in my paycheck? Probably not. But my taxes will go up so for most americans it will cost us more. How is that helping any?

Quote

Look at the current state of hospitals, HMO's, insurance companies and managed care and tell me how private industry can run health care.

I dont know what Doc you go to but we have pretty good health care here now. I dont see how the Govt sticking there nose in it will help anything.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,147]

Quote

Quote

How do you feel about paying for the war in Iraq?

Are you OK with paying to kill people, but not to care for them?

Hey John, we are talking health care here! But to answer your question, Yes I am ok. Some people need to be killed. Is that the answer you wanted. Now go find one of the 100's of Iraq threads and beat your drum over there.

Ok you are clearly a Bush-conservative if you'd prefer to pay to kill people than to care for them.

Clearly the dead Iraqi children need to be killed.

At least you are honest.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,114]

>Why would I want to go to the Doc more?

Because you will get old and sick. We all will.

Right now if you get (say) leukemia, you may just have to deal with chemo and hope you make it. But if someone comes up with an expensive new treatment that cures leukemia, I bet you will want it. And the smart money is on the medical community developing new treatments.

I have a friend who has a new liver and a new kidney. Cost over $200,000 - but he's alive and jumping. 50 years ago, his healthcare would have cost him a lot less. (He'd be dead, but he would have spent less money.)

What sort of technology will be keeping us alive 50 years from now? Impossible to say, but it's a safe bet that it will be better. We will live longer and have fewer medical problems we can't deal with. So that trend is likely to continue.

That progression is one reason healthcare has been getting more and more expensive over the years. We spend more because we can get better treatments for our illnesses.

>My employer will see the govt giving out health care and tell me to go
>there. They will cancel me.

So get a better job.

I have great healthcare coverage; it's one reason I took the job. If you want great healthcare coverage, then choose it. If you'd rather have the money, then choose THAT.

>But my taxes will go up so for most americans it will cost us more. How
>is that helping any?

Why would your taxes go up? We'd just deficit spend, and have a "social medicine" tax cut!

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I was referring to traditional health insurance. I don't think anyone should be turned away from an emergency room in case of an accident. They should get the care they need and make arrangements to pay the hospital for services rendered.

And there is the problem - people without insurance go to the ER, can't pay (esp when the list price on the first hour can top $10,000), and then the hospital writes it off. To support that, the insured subsidize in the form of higher rates, somehow. And the worst, in theory, is the wealthy uninsured who just pay in cash, though if they negotiate in advance for cash payments they probably get the HMO/PPO rate as well.

In short, the prices are all bullshit, no transparency. I have about 3 inches of statements from last year's crash showing the billed amount, and the paid amount, and the back and forth on was it justified and properly documented.

If everyone is insured, you eliminate much of this. Hence why her and Kerry's proposals both have mandates, why San Francisco's one has it as well. You don't get any gains or economy of scale if most of the uninsured don't use it.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Ok you are clearly a Bush-conservative

Conservative. Bush and conservative just dont blend. I'm sure you wouldnt like to be referred to as a Carter Liberal would you? Or maybe you would.

Quote

you'd prefer to pay to kill people than to care for them.

Thats right John, I'm in the bushes outside the ER just snipen off kids.

Quote

Clearly the dead Iraqi children need to be killed.

Where the hell did that come from?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Right now if you get (say) leukemia, you may just have to deal with chemo and hope you make it. But if someone comes up with an expensive new treatment that cures leukemia, I bet you will want it. And the smart money is on the medical community developing new treatments.

It the govt dictates how much they pay for something and it cuts into the drug co's bank what is there motivation to come up with new treatments if the govt wont pay for it?

Quote

>My employer will see the govt giving out health care and tell me to go
>there. They will cancel me.

So get a better job.

Is this what you will tell everyone when there employer dumps there health care and tells them to go to the govt for it?

Quote

Why would your taxes go up? We'd just deficit spend, and have a "social medicine" tax cut!

I hope your joking! You think this will happen with no tax hikes? The $110b a year is just going to fall from a tree an poof, we all have health care.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[willard 0]

Quote

Quote

Ok you are clearly a Bush-conservative

Conservative. Bush and conservative just dont blend. I'm sure you wouldnt like to be referred to as a Carter Liberal would you? Or maybe you would.

Quote

you'd prefer to pay to kill people than to care for them.

Thats right John, I'm in the bushes outside the ER just snipen off kids.

Quote

Clearly the dead Iraqi children need to be killed.

Where the hell did that come from?

Don't pay no mind to the comment about the children. That's just John's way of changing the subject to another Bush-bashing thread.

And NO, John, the dead Iraqi children did not need to be killed. They were already dead. Otherwise they would be live Iraqi children.

[billvon 3,114]

>It the govt dictates how much they pay for something and it cuts into
>the drug co's bank what is there motivation to come up with new
>treatments if the govt wont pay for it?

Do a two tier system. Government covers you if you get in a car crash and they can't find your insurance card (or you have none.) If you want the expensive gene therapy for leukemia, then you pay. When it gets cheap enough, then add it to standard coverage.http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_reply_write;parent_post_id=2952158
Dropzone.com Skydive Forums: Community: Speakers Corner: Reply to post If it never gets cheap enough, then, well, you die unless you can afford it (or have a good health care program.)

>Is this what you will tell everyone when there employer dumps there
>health care and tells them to go to the govt for it?

It's what I tell everyone who doesn't like their job no matter what the reason.

>I hope your joking!

Well, we're paying for a 500 billion dollar war - and we had tax cuts. If we started a 250 billion dollar basic coverage program, tax cuts would be even easier.

Let's put it this way. You support the war - how much more are you willing to pay in taxes to support it? Would you be willing to spend half that much on a universal healthcare system that covers very basic care?

[kallend 2,147]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Ok you are clearly a Bush-conservative

Conservative. Bush and conservative just dont blend. I'm sure you wouldnt like to be referred to as a Carter Liberal would you? Or maybe you would.

Quote

you'd prefer to pay to kill people than to care for them.

Thats right John, I'm in the bushes outside the ER just snipen off kids.

Quote

Clearly the dead Iraqi children need to be killed.

Where the hell did that come from?

Don't pay no mind to the comment about the children. That's just John's way of changing the subject to another Bush-bashing thread.

And NO, John, the dead Iraqi children did not need to be killed. They were already dead. Otherwise they would be live Iraqi children.

Tens of thousands of dead in Iraq, including children, in a war started by conservatives. I have yet to hear a single conservative voice complaining about the cost to taxpayers of the war, but you are in unison complaining about taxes paying for healthcare.

There's no disputing that you'd rather pay for a war than to help people with health care.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.