More Guns, Not Less, Would Prevent Shooting Massacres

[Clownburner 0]

Interesting editorial.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294954,00.html

So, do you agree or disagree with the premise of the article? Please support your conclusions with facts.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[mnealtx 0]

A couple thoughts:

Criminals deal from a position of overwhelming power (in whatever fashion - physical strength, a weapon, etc.). If someone is armed and willing to defend themselves, that advantage of power is negated.

Additionally, for all the people who think guns are bad or wrong:

What are you going to do, when someone is pounding at your door, screaming that they're going to kill you?

1. Call someone with a gun.

2. Pray they'll get there in time.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Squeak 17]

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So, do you agree or disagree with the premise of the article? Please support your conclusions with facts.

GOOD LUCK DUDE

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[tkhayes 348]

the assumption of course is that everyone who is carrying a gun for defense is at the ready, sober, calm and collected, and able to deal with the situation when presented.

That is far from reality. What about everyone has a gun, but that guy over there had a few too many drinks and someone pissed him off, or the woman just had a fight with her husband and on the way to work got in a fender bender and now she is screaming - pisse doff (and armed).

You might reduce 'mass murders' and bank robberies if everyone has a gun, but you will greatly increase the indiscriminate shootings.

'back in the old west'..... people were required to turn in their guns in many towns when they came. The reason was simple. too many people got shot for no good reason. Same would happen today.

I am all for utopia, but to be honest, constitutional rights or not, there are people out there that should NOT be armed. Just like there are people out there that should not be driving, or skydiving, or operating heavy machinery, or whatever.

TK

[mnealtx 0]

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the assumption of course is that everyone who is carrying a gun for defense is at the ready, sober, calm and collected, and able to deal with the situation when presented.

The people that jump through the necessary hoops to gain a concealed carry license ARE, in fact, more likely to be "ready, sober, calm and collect (as much as that's possible in the situation) and able to deal with the situation"

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That is far from reality. What about everyone has a gun, but that guy over there had a few too many drinks and someone pissed him off, or the woman just had a fight with her husband and on the way to work got in a fender bender and now she is screaming - pisse doff (and armed).

I'm sure you'll be able to point us to the MANY (no doubt) incidents where what you describe has happened with concealed carry holders. This, of course, notwithstanding the fact that CCL holders, as a general rule, commit less crimes than the police.

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You might reduce 'mass murders' and bank robberies if everyone has a gun, but you will greatly increase the indiscriminate shootings.

Yup, gonna have to show me those massacres committed by legal carry permit holders.

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'back in the old west'..... people were required to turn in their guns in many towns when they came. The reason was simple. too many people got shot for no good reason. Same would happen today.

Need proof on both of your points here, as well. Historical records don't bear out your theory.

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I am all for utopia, but to be honest, constitutional rights or not, there are people out there that should NOT be armed. Just like there are people out there that should not be driving, or skydiving, or operating heavy machinery, or whatever.

No argument, there....provided there is demonstrated PROOF that they are unsuitable. The slippery slope there is then...where do you STOP taking rights away?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[CornishChris 5]

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What are you going to do, when someone is pounding at your door, screaming that they're going to kill you?

What a commonplace occurrence...

What if someone has a nucleur weapon at my door? Would I be better off if I had one too to maintain a position of mutually assured destruction?

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[tkhayes 348]

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Yup, gonna have to show me those massacres committed by legal carry permit holders.

I did not say 'massacres', I said an increase in indiscriminate shootings.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/wherown.htm
Shows MANY statistics about concealed weapons holders committing crimes. Are you suggesting that NO concealed weapons permit holders would commit murder? I doubt that you are. And that was my point, not 'massacres'


http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/dodge.htm plus other sites, if you search on "Gun Laws in the Old West" will confirm that in fact, places DID have laws banning guns in the cities and towns.

The shootout at the OK Corral was about disarming people in the town.

Glad you agree that some people should not be armed. You obviously will air on the side of letting these people have guns. I will air on the side of NOT letting them have guns.

Now if you want to add to the concealed weapons permit with ongoing training, recurrency, continuing education etc, then perhaps there is some common sense in that. But a one-day course held at a gun show here in Florida and turn some idiot loose with a cannon? That's not the country I want to live in, sorry.

Anyway blah blah blah yet another gun thread.... (yawn)

TK

[mnealtx 0]

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Yup, gonna have to show me those massacres committed by legal carry permit holders.

I did not say 'massacres', I said an increase in indiscriminate shootings.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/wherown.htm
Shows MANY statistics about concealed weapons holders committing crimes. Are you suggesting that NO concealed weapons permit holders would commit murder? I doubt that you are. And that was my point, not 'massacres'

True, you did not - you have ALSO not shown that CCL holders have a greater propensity for crime.

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http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/dodge.htm plus other sites, if you search on "Gun Laws in the Old West" will confirm that in fact, places DID have laws banning guns in the cities and towns.

The shootout at the OK Corral was about disarming people in the town.

I don't dispute that SOME places had laws against guns in the city limits - however, your words make it sound as if it were the rule and not the exception.

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Glad you agree that some people should not be armed. You obviously will air on the side of letting these people have guns. I will air on the side of NOT letting them have guns.

Kleck postulated roughly 2 million defensive gun uses each year. Your viewpoint disarms the law-abiding and leaves them at the mercy of criminals.

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Now if you want to add to the concealed weapons permit with ongoing training, recurrency, continuing education etc, then perhaps there is some common sense in that.

Have you researched training requirements? In point of fact, CHL holders tend to spend more time at the range than police officers do.

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But a one-day course held at a gun show here in Florida and turn some idiot loose with a cannon? That's not the country I want to live in, sorry.

And yet, people have no problems with someone over the age of 18 that can, with NO training and a simple test, drive a multi-ton vehicle at highway speeds. Compare the number of deaths from firearms to the number of deaths from automobile accidents and tell me which is a greater threat to the safety of the general public.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AWL71 0]

Good points made above. Criminals already carry guns so the more concealed carry permits we have the better off we will be. What is wrong with a pistol when it is carried and used by a pesponsible person?
Drunk drivers cause far more carnage than responsible gun owners. Shall we outlaw the sale of all alcohol?

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[tkhayes 348]

once again, semantics

I did not say CCL owners would have a 'greater propensity' or anything else - I said if there are more guns out there being carried by more people, then more people will get indiscriminately shot.

You said that permit holders commit less crimes and I disputed that by showing that they still do commit crimes.

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I don't dispute that SOME places had laws against guns in the city limits - however, your words make it sound as if it were the rule and not the exception.

I said 'many towns' - that is TOTALLY ACCURATE, therefore not worthy of your dispute

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Your viewpoint disarms the law-abiding and leaves them at the mercy of criminals.

You seem to have no idea what my viewpoint is, I did not mention 'disarming' anyone, as a matter of fact I actually promotoed MORE TRAINING for those carrying guns

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Have you researched training requirements? In point of fact, CHL holders tend to spend more time at the range than police officers do.

Prove to me that these people do 'ongoing training'.
Training requirements are to GET the permit. there is NO SUCH requirement to maintain it. (other than expiring in 5 years in Florida)
http://suncoastgunshows.com/html/concealed_weapons_permit.htm

the course is 2 HOURS LONG - you are telling me that my 'mom' can learn to use a gun safely in 2 hours? This backs up the arguement that 'inexperienced people' armed with weapons are far more likely to make mistakes, just as inexperienced people doing anything that they are not properly trained for will likely make mistakes.

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And yet, people have no problems with someone over the age of 18 that can, with NO training and a simple test, drive a multi-ton vehicle at highway speeds.

Arguably the training for your driving test is far more detailed and takes far longer than for a concealed weapons permit. 18 years old or not, I find THAT to be disturbing.

No one gets a drivers license with the intent to 'defend themselves' The two things are mutually exclusive, apples and oranges and are not worthy of comparison.

Now, I do agree that is the concealed weapons permit was a detailed, multi-day or week course, with ongoing training requirements and currency training to keep the permit, then the outcome would be fewer people with permits, but those that are out there would be better prepared and better trained. I am actually Ok with that.

And I also believe the same should apply to drivers. Pilots have to do checkrides and such, but drivers do not. And for that matter many other things in life.

TK

[Andrewwhyte 1]

So what about Iraq? Do you think the problem is that the honest, peace loving Iraqi civilians just don't have the ability to protect themselves? Should we just send a shit load of guns, distribute them, and bring the boys home?

[mnealtx 0]

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Have you researched training requirements? In point of fact, CHL holders tend to spend more time at the range than police officers do.

Prove to me that these people do 'ongoing training'.
Training requirements are to GET the permit. there is NO SUCH requirement to maintain it. (other than expiring in 5 years in Florida)
http://suncoastgunshows.com/html/concealed_weapons_permit.htm

the course is 2 HOURS LONG - you are telling me that my 'mom' can learn to use a gun safely in 2 hours? This backs up the arguement that 'inexperienced people' armed with weapons are far more likely to make mistakes, just as inexperienced people doing anything that they are not properly trained for will likely make mistakes.

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And yet, people have no problems with someone over the age of 18 that can, with NO training and a simple test, drive a multi-ton vehicle at highway speeds.

Arguably the training for your driving test is far more detailed and takes far longer than for a concealed weapons permit. 18 years old or not, I find THAT to be disturbing.

No one gets a drivers license with the intent to 'defend themselves' The two things are mutually exclusive, apples and oranges and are not worthy of comparison.

Now, I do agree that is the concealed weapons permit was a detailed, multi-day or week course, with ongoing training requirements and currency training to keep the permit, then the outcome would be fewer people with permits, but those that are out there would be better prepared and better trained. I am actually Ok with that.

And I also believe the same should apply to drivers. Pilots have to do checkrides and such, but drivers do not. And for that matter many other things in life.

TK

Glad you put that you feel ongoing training should be required for a driver's license as well! After the age of 18, there is no requirement that I am aware of for driver's training in order to get a license.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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So what about Iraq? Do you think the problem is that the honest, peace loving Iraqi civilians just don't have the ability to protect themselves? Should we just send a shit load of guns, distribute them, and bring the boys home?

Spam your shit in one of the Iraq threads, Andy.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Clownburner 0]

Sure, the requirements in Florida are a little lax. And yet, the number of "indiscriminate shootings" in Florida hasn't increased - in fact, the number of "aggravated assault by firearms" in florida is down over 40% since 1996. It's well below (>25%) the levels in 1985, before Florida passed the "shall issue" law. It dropped significantly faster than the national average crime rate.

Even the percentage of aggravated assaults by firearm as a percentage of total aggravated assaults has dropped, according to the Florida office of Law Enforcement Statistics.

Actual data

Hmm.

And most states and counties have even stricter requirements for demonstrating proficiency - where I live, the CCW class is a full day and requires you to demonstrate considerable shooting skills and accuracy, comparable to the firearms qualification they give sherriff's deputies. Which you're not going to get, if you're not already pretty good with a gun before you even show up to the class. And you have to requalify every 2 years.

It's already illegal to carry your concealed weapon if you're drunk or you're entering a bar or similar establishment (as well as any courthouse, federal building, some sporting arenas, etc).

I understand the fear that more armed people = more random shootings, but the statistics and history just don't bear that out.

...Oh, and PS: The study page you linked cites a study that " concludes that Florida's concealed weapons law puts guns into the hands of criminals." The very idea is fallacious: Do you think that most criminals bother to apply for a license and a background check before carrying a gun? The law in question has nothing to do with buying a gun, just licensing people to carry them. The study cites 469 individuals over a span of 8 years who committed crimes before or after receiving a CCW. In a state that averages over 1,000,000 crimes per year in that same period, and over 100,000 violent crimes per year, that number seems almost abnormally low, wouldn't you say?

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[kelpdiver 2]

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http://www.vpc.org/studies/wherown.htm
Shows MANY statistics about concealed weapons holders committing crimes. Are you suggesting that NO concealed weapons permit holders would commit murder? I doubt that you are. And that was my point, not 'massacres'

It goes without saying that the VPC is not going to make a impartial presentation on the subject.

4. Concealed Carry: The Criminal's Companion, Florida's Concealed Weapons Law—A Model for the Nation?, Susan Glick, MHS, Violence Policy Center, Washington, DC, November 1995, 48 pages.
Key Statistic: Between October 1987 and July 1995 a total of 469 individuals were identified as having committed a wide variety of crimes—including assault with intent to murder, kidnapping/attempted kidnapping, and shooting with intent to wound—either before obtaining the Florida concealed carry license or after licensure.

5. Concealing the Risk: Real-World Effects of Lax Concealed Weapons Laws, Susan Glick, MHS, Violence Policy Center, Washington, DC, July 1996, 32 pages.

Key Statistics: The rate at which Florida's concealed weapons law is arming criminals is increasing. In the year-long period surveyed (1995 to 1996), an additional 149 individuals were found to have had their licenses revoked for crimes committed either before or after their concealed weapons license was issued. This represents a one-year jump of nearly 30 percent over the previous seven-year total. Of those who committed a crime after having received their concealed weapons license, one in five committed their crime with a gun.
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Note that the denominator (the number of CCW licenses issued) is conspiciously absent here. One examination of CCW holders found them to commit crimes at a rate lower than a typical city police force.

Summary also does not detail the number of crimes in the category of "intent to murder, etc" You have to pay $10 and $8 to see those details, if they're even included.

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6. License to Kill: Arrests Involving Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders, Susan Glick, MHS, Violence Policy Center, Washington, DC, January 1998, 24 pages.
Key Statistics: From January 1, 1996 to October 9, 1997 Texas concealed handgun license holders were arrested for 946 crimes. Of these, 263 were felony arrests, including: six charges of murder or attempted murder involving at least four deaths; two charges of kidnapping; 18 charges of sexual assault; 66 charges of assault, including 48 cases of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon; and, 42 weapon-related charges. Six-hundred eighty-three were misdemeanor arrests, including: 194 weapon-related charges and 215 instances of driving while intoxicated. In the first six months of 1997 (the most recent complete data set available), the weapon-related arrest rate among Texas concealed handgun license holders was more than twice as high as that of the general population of Texas aged 21 and older.
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Same problem - no denominator. This one does include some crime breakdowns, though I fail to see a relevence to the 215 DUI charges. Of the 946, 170 are felonies involving violence, and 194 weapons related misdomeanor charges, which could be serious or could be ticky tack.

And of course the overall problem with your argument, the one that the VPC made before each state enacted the change in policy, is that all this random violence never materialized. The sort of people that would commit these crimes never needed a CCW. So the law had very little effect on the number of attackers. The law did enable the victims, so it had some effect there. How much effect is nearly impossible to determine. But it's easier to see that it didn't have the negative one you suggest.

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http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/dodge.htm plus other sites, if you search on "Gun Laws in the Old West" will confirm that in fact, places DID have laws banning guns in the cities and towns.

His point was that the notion of the Wild Wild West is mostly false - it was not nearly as violent as we movie goers believe.