God, the Founding Fathers and the Construction of the Constitution of the US

[rushmc 23]

http://newsmax.com/insidecover/christianity_founders/2007/09/12/32186.html

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Nightingale 0]

Those numbers are truly frightening.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Those numbers are truly frightening.

Which numbers specifically and why?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

http://newsmax.com/insidecover/christianity_founders/2007/09/12/32186.html

I think you're better off quoting from MAD Magazine.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

Quote

Those numbers are truly frightening.

Which numbers specifically and why?

Poll: Founders Put God in Constitution

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:19 PM

A majority of Americans believe that America’s founding fathers wrote Christianity into the Constitution, a new poll reveals.

The survey by the First Amendment Center, a non-partisan educational group, found that 55 percent of respondents erroneously believe the Constitution establishes a Christian nation. Three out of four people who say they are evangelical or Republican feel that way, while only about half of Democrats and independents agree.

even the article itself says that respondents ERRONEOUSLY believe that the constitution establishes a Christian nation. I'm guessing they haven't actually read it, because I have and I'd love to know where it says that.

The poll also found that only 56 percent think freedom of religion applies to all groups “regardless of how extreme their beliefs are.” That’s down from 72 percent in a similar poll in 2000.

so 46% of people are okay with freedom to believe whatever, but only if someone else thinks the beliefs are not too extreme. Whose business is it of theirs what religion someone else is or how extreme they want to make it?

“We are seeing the product of years of not teaching the First Amendment at a young age,” said Gene Policinski, the center’s executive director.

That is so true!

Other poll results reported by USA Today include:

# 58 percent of respondents said teachers in public schools should be permitted to lead prayers.

I don't have a problem with teachers leading prayers to voluntary groups of students who want them, outside of class. I do have a problem with teachers leading prayers in class to a captive audience. School prayer in that manner is unconstitutional, because a teacher is an employee of the government and in a position of authority there, and the government can't promote religion.


# Half said teachers should be allowed to use the Bible as a factual source in history class.

well, the Bible's not a history book; it's a religion book, so a public school history teacher can't open it, present it as fact, and teach the young earth theory. However, I wouldn't have a problem with history teachers using the bible to present, say, an example of oral tradition among tribal people in the middle east, or to use the book as a supplement to show how Christianity influenced the development of society. It would just need to be placed in it's historical context and studied as an influential historical document, not as religious truth.

# 43 percent said public schools should be permitted to put on Nativity re-enactments – up from 36 percent in 2005.

reenactments for what purpose? to promote religion, or as an exercise for an after-school optional drama club? I'd be okay with the second, but not the first, and attendance would, of course, have to be optional. Students could probably learn a lot from a drama club activity, and students present plays involving religious figures all the time. Most high schools have put on Antigone or Romeo and Juliet, and both of those contain reference to various deities.

[Casurf1978 0]

All of them.

1. We were not founded as a Christian nation. End of story. Just read some of the things Jefferson and other founding fathers have to say about religion, mainly Christianity. This is from a letter Jefferson wrote:


"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

If that's not enough read Madison's Memorial and Remonstance. He states several reasons why government should not be involved in the support of ANY religion.

2. Teachers should not lead prayers in public schools. This ones pretty clear.

3. The Bible is not history nor should be taught as that.

[n23x 0]

Who gives a fuck because this poll was probably taken in in the middle of BFE nowhere kansas! They're not even real people! They probably filled out this poll somewhere in between bombing an abortion clinic, holding up signs that say "fags burn in hell", and then soliciting sex in the boys bathroom. Or were they just doing the "fred astaire"?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[quade 4]

Quote

http://newsmax.com/insidecover/christianity_founders/2007/09/12/32186.html

I wonder if the editors of NewsMax actually understand the implications here.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Who gives a fuck because this poll was probably taken in in the middle of BFE nowhere kansas! They're not even real people!

This is right up there with the Klan's take on Blacks.

Quote

They probably filled out this poll somewhere in between bombing an abortion clinic, holding up signs that say "fags burn in hell", and then soliciting sex in the boys bathroom. Or were they just doing the "fred astaire"?

.jim

Such an enlightened perspective. Do you always look for the worst exceptions to paint with a broad brush?

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

All of them.

1. We were not founded as a Christian nation. End of story. Just read some of the things Jefferson and other founding fathers have to say about religion, mainly Christianity. This is from a letter Jefferson wrote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

Funny how people rarely mention the context in which the above was written.

Anyway, what role did Jefferson play in the writing of our Constitution?

Quote

If that's not enough read Madison's Memorial and Remonstance. He states several reasons why government should not be involved in the support of ANY religion.

You mean they weren't talking about an official religion of the nation, akin to the Church of England?

Quote

2. Teachers should not lead prayers in public schools. This ones pretty clear.

You mention Jefferson and Madison... what where their thoughts on official State religions? Did they object to the States that made official religions part of their Constitutions?

Quote

3. The Bible is not history nor should be taught as that.

You mean it's all fiction?

[nerdgirl 0]

Ignorance w/r/t religion & history is far-reaching - it's not just about the Founding Fathers.

Stephen Prothero's Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't is fascinating and timely -- given the role of religion & religious extremists in national and international security now.

-- Less than 50% of Americans can identify the first book of the Bible.
-- Just over one-third can identify who delivered the Sermon on Mount.
-- 75% believe that the Bible teaches that "God helps those who help themselves."
-- Only 50% can name the four Gospels.
-- Then there's the downright frighteningly silly, e.g., 10% think that Noah's wife was Joan of Arc, a slight majority think Sodom & Gemorrah were husband & wife, and Ramadan is identified as a Jewish holiday.

Book review: http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-03-07-teaching-religion-cover_N.htm The cited Newsmax article is based on a USA Today poll.

If the majority of Americans who profess to practice one religion do not know the basic history of that religion, is it really surprising the misperceptions that exist regarding other history?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

or to use the book as a supplement to show how Christianity influenced the development of society.

Yeah, I can imagine how that would go.

"In this lesson we are going to look at how Jesus invented the morality upon which modern civilisation relies"

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

Quote

or to use the book as a supplement to show how Christianity influenced the development of society.

Yeah, I can imagine how that would go.

"In this lesson we are going to look at how Jesus invented the morality upon which modern civilisation relies"

I was thinking about something more like teaching how religion and superstition based on religious ideas influenced the spread of the black plague, or how California was influenced by the beliefs of missionaries and the creation of the missions here. The bible and christianity has influenced the development of American and European society. To ignore that is to turn a blind eye to a significant part of history. History doesn't just teach what happened when. It needs to show WHY what happened when. Otherwise, you just have a bunch of disconnected pieces and can't assemble the puzzle.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

http://newsmax.com/insidecover/christianity_founders/2007/09/12/32186.html

I think you're better off quoting from MAD Magazine.

It is a much better source than you or kallend

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

http://newsmax.com/insidecover/christianity_founders/2007/09/12/32186.html

I think you're better off quoting from MAD Magazine.

Oh, and thanks for admitting you cant handle the topic since you choose to attack a source.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Those numbers are truly frightening.

Which numbers specifically and why?

Poll: Founders Put God in Constitution

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:19 PM

A majority of Americans believe that America’s founding fathers wrote Christianity into the Constitution, a new poll reveals.

The survey by the First Amendment Center, a non-partisan educational group, found that 55 percent of respondents erroneously believe the Constitution establishes a Christian nation. Three out of four people who say they are evangelical or Republican feel that way, while only about half of Democrats and independents agree.

even the article itself says that respondents ERRONEOUSLY believe that the constitution establishes a Christian nation. I'm guessing they haven't actually read it, because I have and I'd love to know where it says that. OK, I did not understand where you were coming from. Here we agree

The poll also found that only 56 percent think freedom of religion applies to all groups “regardless of how extreme their beliefs are.” That’s down from 72 percent in a similar poll in 2000.

so 46% of people are okay with freedom to believe whatever, but only if someone else thinks the beliefs are not too extreme. Whose business is it of theirs what religion someone else is or how extreme they want to make it?

“We are seeing the product of years of not teaching the First Amendment at a young age,” said Gene Policinski, the center’s executive director.

That is so true!

Other poll results reported by USA Today include:

# 58 percent of respondents said teachers in public schools should be permitted to lead prayers.

I don't have a problem with teachers leading prayers to voluntary groups of students who want them, outside of class. I do have a problem with teachers leading prayers in class to a captive audience. School prayer in that manner is unconstitutional, because a teacher is an employee of the government and in a position of authority there, and the government can't promote religion.


# Half said teachers should be allowed to use the Bible as a factual source in history class.

well, the Bible's not a history book; it's a religion book, so a public school history teacher can't open it, present it as fact, and teach the young earth theory. However, I wouldn't have a problem with history teachers using the bible to present, say, an example of oral tradition among tribal people in the middle east, or to use the book as a supplement to show how Christianity influenced the development of society. It would just need to be placed in it's historical context and studied as an influential historical document, not as religious truth.

# 43 percent said public schools should be permitted to put on Nativity re-enactments – up from 36 percent in 2005.

reenactments for what purpose? to promote religion, or as an exercise for an after-school optional drama club? I'd be okay with the second, but not the first, and attendance would, of course, have to be optional. Students could probably learn a lot from a drama club activity, and students present plays involving religious figures all the time. Most high schools have put on Antigone or Romeo and Juliet, and both of those contain reference to various deities.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

All of them.

1. We were not founded as a Christian nation. End of story. Yes we was, sorryJust read some of the things Jefferson and other founding fathers have to say about religion, mainly Christianity. This is from a letter Jefferson wrote:


"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

If that's not enough read Madison's Memorial and Remonstance. He states several reasons why government should not be involved in the support of ANY religion.

2. Teachers should not lead prayers in public schools. This ones pretty clear.I son't agree. That should be left to the local schools

3. The Bible is not history nor should be taught as that.

I agree here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

1. We were not founded as a Christian nation. End of story. Yes we was, sorry

Accepting that for the sake of argument, what does it mean to you that you was founded as a Christian nation?

Should America still be run as a Christian nation? Should Christianity get any form of special consideration, or is it just an irrelevant historical happenstance?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

1. We were not founded as a Christian nation. End of story. Yes we was, sorry

Accepting that for the sake of argument, what does it mean to you that you was founded as a Christian nation?

Should America still be run as a Christian nation? Basicly we are today but there arm many trying to change thatShould Christianity get any form of special consideration, or is it just an irrelevant historical happenstance?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

Should America still be run as a Christian nation? Basicly we are today but there arm many trying to change that

OK, but what does that mean? How is America run as a Christian nation rather than a secular nation? Who are you saying is trying to change America into a non Christian nation?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[AWL71 0]

The constitution is not a religious document but I would call it a moral document. Most of the Founding Fathers had a belief in God and those beliefs helped frame the constitution to an extent. They understood that church and state should be separate for obvious reasons.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[JackC 0]

Quote

1. We were not founded as a Christian nation. End of story. Yes we was, sorry

Then perhaps you could explain this:

The Treaty of Tripoli (1796) Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

Then perhaps you could explain this:

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

The Treaty of Tripoli (1796)

Yeah but since the US bombed Tripoli in 1986 I don't think the treaty counts any more

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[JackC 0]

Ah, so that's what allowed G.W. Bush to say "The United States is a Christian nation founded upon Christian principles and beliefs". I thought it was just his piss poor knowledge of history. Revisionism, ain't it grand.

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Quote

Should America still be run as a Christian nation? Basicly we are today but there arm many trying to change that

OK, but what does that mean? How is America run as a Christian nation rather than a secular nation? Who are you saying is trying to change America into a non Christian nation?

For this to be an honest discussion, we need to distinquish the goverment (and the laws governing it) from the people.

The Founding Fathers were overwhelmingly Christian. I'm pretty sure all of them believed in the God of Christianity and Judaism, even if they did not support organized religion.

While they were men of faith, they opposed a theocratic goverment. In writing our Constitution, they intentionally addressed religion (and the associated rights) in a specific and limited manner.

For the first 150 years of our history, Christianity was a major part of who we were as a nation. Christian messages and symbols were placed on many of our national monuments and symbols. Prayer at public events was standard fare.

For the last 60 years or so, there has been a constant effort to remove many of these Christian aspects from our society. Some of the changes are quite reasonable. Some are totally absurd, basically overriding the wishes of the clear majority in favor of a few malcontents. The ACLU has profitted greatly off of seeing how far they can re-interpret the so-called "establishment clause".

For the last 20 years, there has been a counter effort by Christian groups stop stop the erosion of Christianity from American life. As a result, we have some rather extreme groups leading the charge. Unfortunately, the get the headlines, so many people think they are representative of Christians in this country. Bummer.