Wouldn’t you feel safer with a gun?

[billvon 3,112]

>Where do you draw the line?

When your life is threatened.

>Why carry a gun if you are not willing to use it?

Why jump a cypres if you're not willing to use it? Why pull all the time, when you spent over $1000 on a device that is perfectly capable of doing it for you?

Answer - because then it is making you a less safe skydiver. You should always pull unless you are completely unable to. Likewise, if your gun only gets used when it is the only thing that will save your life, then it will make you safer overall. If it makes you want to stay in dangerous situations to "dispense some justice" or "refuse to be a victim" or whatever, then it is making you less safe overall.

[Nightingale 0]

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>Where do you draw the line?

When your life is threatened.

>Why carry a gun if you are not willing to use it?

Why jump a cypres if you're not willing to use it? Why pull all the time, when you spent over $1000 on a device that is perfectly capable of doing it for you?

Answer - because then it is making you a less safe skydiver. You should always pull unless you are completely unable to. Likewise, if your gun only gets used when it is the only thing that will save your life, then it will make you safer overall. If it makes you want to stay in dangerous situations to "dispense some justice" or "refuse to be a victim" or whatever, then it is making you less safe overall.

Exactly. Very well put, Bill. That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

[sv3n 0]

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The best decision for everybody? This is not Alice in Wonderland. Actions have consequences. If I am threatened I am going to respond. Your solution lets the bad guys get away with no consequences and that is why crime is on the rise. We have to take a stand as a society against this type of thing. Otherwise it will continue to escalate. What you describe is a slippery slope. At what point to you stand up for yourself. "OK Mr. Bad guy, I will let you rape my wife and beat my kids but then you have to leave so we can have the best outcome for everybody." Example may be extreme...but at what point do you stop letting people act without consequences?

Lenin said, "Probe with bayonets, where you find mush proceed, where you find steel, withdraw." Call this a thug's credo.

People need to choose their individual "choke point" where you draw the line in the sand and refuse to be victimized. I choose to be steel. That's why I carry and that's why I'm not afraid of being a victim.

A gun is the great equalizer; it makes me stronger than four. If they reach for a weapon while I have my weapon drawn, I have them at a serious disadvantage. If they have a weapon out already, I will still draw down on them because I have the intention of killing them, whereas they probably assume I am unarmed and may only have the intention of intimidating me. Lastly, if they have a weapon out and ARE prepared to kill me, they will have to work for it because I will be blazing back at them until only one of us is left standing.

A person is justified in the use of deadly force, if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.

This means that I--not the bad guy--get the benefit of the doubt. And I practice the American martial art of BangPao with a Mozambique Drill!

I agree with you to a certain extent......sometimes you need to be strong and stand up for yourself, but there's a fine line between being the victim and changing the roles and becoming the aggressor.........and in a legal sense the incident in question would not justify deadly force. Had they pulled a weapon or told him that they were going to kill him, at that point he should have pulled his...........not before. "I thought they were armed" or "it seemed like they were going to" aren't going to get you anywhere in court. This wasn't a life or death situation....it could have turned into it, but at this point it was not. There's a flaw in your theory.........if you choose to be "steel" all the time.........someone says something that intimidates you and you pull a gun, you've just crossed the line of becoming the aggressor............you just made them the victim. You can't physically threaten people with a weapon over a verbal comment............unless that comment is something along the lines of "I am going to kill you".

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A person is justified in the use of deadly force, if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.

I agree with you here, once again to a point...........if you can resolve the situation without killing your opponent, then that is the route you should take. If killing your opponent is your only choice then so be it.

Personally I prefer a more ancient art called g` lock.

Just to clarify: choosing to be "steel" doesn't mean that the only tool on my belt is a gun. It could be anything from making an assertive comment, standing up to a bully, getting a movie manager to eject some loudmouth SOB, filing a grievance against a boss, to calling 911, up to shooting some bastard dead.

Being "steel" means I choose to resist the bullies/meanies/thugs/dickheads of the world who generally encounter "mush".

One of the earlier posts referred to the scenario of four slugs surrounding him demanding--not "asking--for his wallet. Now I'm guessing I wouldn't have the presence of mind to remove my ID from my wallet without spooking the thugs into wasting me, but . . . . I'm gonna bet MY life that they mean me harm and aren't out collecting for UNICEF.

The mistake the poster made was in pointing the gun at them too early. He should have had it at the "low ready" position and shouted "NO--I'm not giving you my wallet! Get away from me" [That should keep the ambulance-chaser/prosecutor crowd happy and let any witnesses know that YOU are the victim.] Then call 911 to CYA.

Honestly, we're in agreement 100%. Gun should be last resort.....after all other options have been used.

I have nothing against standing up for yourself at all, but there is a point where you do have to ask yourself....."is it worth getting shot over this wallet, watch, whatever?" or "is it worth somebodies' life for me to keep this wallet, watch, whatever?". And also as a gun owner who plans to use a gun in self-defense, you really have a responsibility to look at who else you might affect by your actions.........like bystanders. Another thing you have to keep in mind is your legal responsibility to yourself.........if someone says "give me your wallet" and you pull a gun, you might be held liable and spend some time with bubba.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[kelpdiver 2]

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........if someone says "give me your wallet" and you pull a gun, you might be held liable and spend some time with bubba.

not even in California, though the near certainty that you're not a CCW holder would be a problem.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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I am planning a 12 day backcountry trip in southern Utah the first two weeks of October, and I will not be armed....this is the first time I have ever been in the backcountry without a weapon and I am not happy about it........I guess my last thoughts whenever that mountain lion/or other is about to pounce on me will be....ain't this some shit!

Why not consider bear spray?

I usually carry spray as well. And in the event something did happen I would try to use the spray first......I called the airline and they told me no bear spray on the plane, not even checked in. So, if I want spray, I will need to buy it when I get there. I think I will pass this time. Little chance of bears where I am going this year, but there are mountain lions.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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So what happens after you hand over the wallet? What if the thug assaults you or shots you in the stomach point blank? Is that a chance you want to take.

Everything in my wallet can be replaced. I've made certain to only carry certain items in it at all times and I have a list of numbers to call to get replacements of the few things in it. I also never carry more than $10-20 on me.

If I lived in that much fear of getting shot by walking out of my house I would never leave it. Almost 35 years living in Chicago and it's still not an issue to me and I've worked in the worst crime areas of the city a few times.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[rickjump1 0]

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I am planning a 12 day backcountry trip in southern Utah the first two weeks of October, and I will not be armed....this is the first time I have ever been in the backcountry without a weapon and I am not happy about it........I guess my last thoughts whenever that mountain lion/or other is about to pounce on me will be....ain't this some shit!

Why not consider bear spray?

I usually carry spray as well. And in the event something did happen I would try to use the spray first......I called the airline and they told me no bear spray on the plane, not even checked in. So, if I want spray, I will need to buy it when I get there. I think I will pass this time. Little chance of bears where I am going this year, but there are mountain lions. Buy it and maybe ship it home. I met an old man hiking in Montana who carried a flare gun in his big pocket. He said it was for "two-legged critters". Just be prepared to face the consequences if you start a fire.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rehmwa 2]

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Everything in my wallet can be replaced. I've made certain to only carry certain items in it at all times and I have a list of numbers to call to get replacements of the few things in it. I also never carry more than $10-20 on me.

"How can you live in such terror all the time?"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Everything in my wallet can be replaced. I've made certain to only carry certain items in it at all times and I have a list of numbers to call to get replacements of the few things in it. I also never carry more than $10-20 on me.

"How can you live in such terror all the time?"

You call it terror, I don't. I've seen what desperate men will do to get money. Life puts people in odd situations and due to lack of experience or support they react poorly. There are other reasons as well that are fueled by drugs, gangs, peer pressure, etc. The reasons I lived in the worst areas of the city was to extend help to those individuals and to help teach their children to help break a cycle.

Despite every situation I have ever been in, including a riot outside my doorstep, I've never needed a gun in this city. Was it luck, street smarts or the way I handled the situation? I know my opinion but I doubt that will sway those that feel they need a gun. I'm not an idiot, I know crime happens. From having my Uncle shot down in a bar to watching someone get their wallet stolen at 4pm on State State street last Friday. I still don't think I will ever need a gun on me.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[JohnRich 4]

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I still don't think I will ever need a gun on me.

Every unarmed person who is assaulted and beaten to within an inch of their life, used to believe that too.

Do you also feel like you'll never need your car's air bag? Your fire extinguisher? Your hook knife?

[billvon 3,112]

>Every unarmed person who is assaulted and beaten to within an inch
>of their life, used to believe that too.

And every unarmed person who has defended himself/herself against an assault without a gun knows that the idea that "you need a gun to defend yourself" is bullshit.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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>Every unarmed person who is assaulted and beaten to within an inch
>of their life, used to believe that too.

And every unarmed person who has defended himself/herself against an assault without a gun knows that the idea that "you need a gun to defend yourself" is bullshit.

That is simply not true, got data on that?

Oh BTW don't go running to the brady bunch for anwsers

[kallend 2,147]

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I still don't think I will ever need a gun on me.

Every unarmed person who is assaulted and beaten to within an inch of their life, used to believe that too.

Do you also feel like you'll never need your car's air bag? Your fire extinguisher? Your hook knife?

Every armed person who has failed to secure their gun against theft, or has had it turned against them, or has shot themselves, or had their child shot by their gun, knows that a gun is a double-edged weapon.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,112]

>That is simply not true . . .

Really? So what really did happen to me in Times Square in December of 1985? Apparently you were there and saw a different version of events than I did, because I didn't have a gun and seemed to do just fine against a mugger.

But I will await your clarification.

[warpedskydiver 0]

You were quite lucky to not have been left dead on the street.

That is about all I can surmise from that.

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And every unarmed person who has defended himself/herself against an assault without a gun knows that the idea that "you need a gun to defend yourself" is bullshit.

Bill Von said that folks, just incase you cant remember from just a few lines up.

Just remember when it comes to defending yourself use Bill's advice and never use a gun.

There are tens of thousands(if not many more) of people lying in their graves who did not use a gun in their attempt to defend themsleves.

And here I was under the stupid assumption that in defending ones life that every possible measure should be taken.

[billvon 3,112]

> You were quite lucky to not have been left dead on the street.

Had I had a gun that night, he would likely now have the gun - and I would either be dead or have my gun being used for other crime.

Fortunately I did not have a gun. I stopped the attempted crime without any drama. I know, I know, how boring - there should have been a shooting and a lot of street justice. I could have put him and his friends six feet in a hole! I could have been a hero! Instead I just made them run.

But the experience does make me laugh when people claim they are defenseless against crime without their guns. Reminds me of people who will not do any kind of skydive without an AAD.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Ok were they armed and with what? ...more than mean looks on their faces?


I would like to know.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>That is simply not true . . .

Really? So what really did happen to me in Times Square in December of 1985? Apparently you were there and saw a different version of events than I did, because I didn't have a gun and seemed to do just fine against a mugger.

But I will await your clarification.

So a young, tall guy was able to defend himself.

Now gain 20 more years and some arthritis, lose 5 inches of height and strength, and try again.

[billvon 3,112]

> Ok were they armed and with what?

I don't know. Didn't matter much. They ran away.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I still don't think I will ever need a gun on me.

Every unarmed person who is assaulted and beaten to within an inch of their life, used to believe that too.

Do you also feel like you'll never need your car's air bag? Your fire extinguisher? Your hook knife?

So is learning how to deal with the situation worse off than having a gun in an untrained hand of a scared, nervous person? It most likely a better idea to teach people how to disarm a person and self defense. Just because you have a gun on you doesn't mean you would have the time to pull the gun and shoot.

Funny thing about a hook knife. You don't need it if you don't put yourself into a situation where it is warranted. Don't skydive, no hook knife needed. Live street smart and you don't need a gun. Oh ya, and from what I've been told, my Uncle would still be dead even if he had a gun. He was shot in the back.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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>That is simply not true . . .

Really? So what really did happen to me in Times Square in December of 1985? Apparently you were there and saw a different version of events than I did, because I didn't have a gun and seemed to do just fine against a mugger.

But I will await your clarification.

So a young, tall guy was able to defend himself.

Now gain 20 more years and some arthritis, lose 5 inches of height and strength, and try again.

So an out of shape person with failing body reflexes, aged speed, and arthritis impacting hands, fingers, etc would be able to quickly draw a gun, remove the safety and confront an accoster?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 3,112]

>use Bill's advice and never use a gun.

Perhaps you should re-read the previous post and see what I said instead of making shit up.

[Royd 0]

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there should have been a shooting and a lot of street justice. I could have put him and his friends six feet in a hole! I could have been a hero!

After reading this thread, I have a hankering to rent some Charles Bronson movies from Netflix.

[kelpdiver 2]

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So a young, tall guy was able to defend himself.

Now gain 20 more years and some arthritis, lose 5 inches of height and strength, and try again.

So an out of shape person with failing body reflexes, aged speed, and arthritis impacting hands, fingers, etc would be able to quickly draw a gun, remove the safety and confront an accoster?

uh, yes. Have you ever used one? It's not that complicated, and is clearly more achievable than trying to physically confront a young accoster.

Wouldn't use a gun with a safety either, or not that kind you seem to be thinking about (again trying to judge your actual knowledge). Sig (my choice) glock, 1911 style - none have that sort of safety.

[kallend 2,147]

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>That is simply not true . . .

Really? So what really did happen to me in Times Square in December of 1985? Apparently you were there and saw a different version of events than I did, because I didn't have a gun and seemed to do just fine against a mugger.

But I will await your clarification.

So a young, tall guy was able to defend himself.

Have you met Bill?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.