Draft dodgers Cowards, brave or other

[Darius11 12]

I was having this conversation with a friend a few days ago.

We were particularly talking about the Vietnam era.

Is risking your life for something you don’t believe in Brave, and not risking your life cowardly?

IMHO: I don’t view the draft dodgers of that era as cowards I actually think they did do the right thing. Why die for something that you do not believe in?

Now if it was a different situation and you are under threat of invasion or someone has already invaded your homeland then IMHO if you run you are a coward and you should fight to the death to protect what is yours.

Just curios as to what people think.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[masterrig 1]

The 60's were nuts! We had the 'Viet Nam mess' going on, civil un-rest, riots... it was nuts. We came home every evening and watched a 'war' on the 6:00 News!
To be honest, I never gave those who dodged the draft, a second thought. I was too concerned with my own butt. No, I didn't want to go fight for something I thought was wrong but, I wasn't going to run, either. I just took my chances. In looking back, I guess, dodging was their way of protesting something they didn't believe in. I had too many buddies who came-back shot-up or messed-up. I believed and still do, we have the freedom of 'choice'. We all have to live with our decisions. They have to live with theirs. The sad part of it all is, I don't think, we learned much from the Viet Nam mess. I do, thank any Viet Nam vet who was there, who I meet. I saw, how they were treated when they got home! I'm just not into 'labels'.


Chuck

[SpeedRacer 1]

It's all a good argument for why there shouldn't be a draft in the first place.

As long as there isn't a draft, only people who believe in a war will sign up. No one has to "dodge" anything if they don't believe in it.

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[Darius11 12]

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As long as there isn't a draft, only people who believe in a war will sign up. No one has to "dodge" anything if they don't believe in it.

Unfortunately most people who join are in middle to low income families who need money for school.
I think for some it might not be that they believe in war but that they want a better life and this is the only way they see of achieving it.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[masterrig 1]

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It's all a good argument for why there shouldn't be a draft in the first place.

As long as there isn't a draft, only people who believe in a war will sign up. No one has to "dodge" anything if they don't believe in it.

Those who did dodge the draft back then, were given amnesty or whatever and welcomed back to the flock. That tells me that in some way, the government was willing to 'forgive and forget' because I think, they thought Viet Nam was wrong and they were trying to 'kiss and make-up' to the public.(?) You do make a valid point. No draft... no dodge. I feel, there are enough people in this country who, when they feel they are 'needed' will join-up. There will always be those who no matter what, won't join. Once again, freedom of choice comes in. This whole topic, leaves so much room for discussion.


Chuck

[kelpdiver 2]

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As long as there isn't a draft, only people who believe in a war will sign up. No one has to "dodge" anything if they don't believe in it.

Unfortunately most people who join are in middle to low income families who need money for school.
I think for some it might not be that they believe in war but that they want a better life and this is the only way they see of achieving it.

Except that it is not the only way. It's a choice.

[JohnRich 4]

It is unclear exactly what question it is to which the poll applies, and thus the results are meaningless.

[Darius11 12]

WOW John OH MY GOD.

If you found something wrong with one of my threads then it must be true. How will I deal with the shame??????

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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As long as there isn't a draft, only people who believe in a war will sign up. No one has to "dodge" anything if they don't believe in it.

Unfortunately most people who join are in middle to low income families who need money for school.
I think for some it might not be that they believe in war but that they want a better life and this is the only way they see of achieving it.

Except that it is not the only way. It's a choice.

You are 100% right sir. It is a choice But a choice that would often not even be considered if you had money.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[steveorino 7]

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Unfortunately most people who join are in middle to low income families who need money for school. I think for some it might not be that they believe in war but that they want a better life and this is the only way they see of achieving it.

Except that it is not the only way. It's a choice.

[JohnRich 4]

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It is a choice But a choice that would often not even be considered if you had money.

Are you saying that people with money will always take the easy way out and never act based upon principles or a sense of duty?

[warpedskydiver 0]

Steve my opinion of draft dodgers is quite simple, those that did dodge the draft are shitbirds.

To dodge the draft in order to not fight and protect the friends, relatives, and other Americans that you don't even know, is cowardly.


Draft dodgers must feel that they are somehow better than everyone else, and therefore should not have to serve no matter what the cost, or how it is done.


Would anyone dodge the draft even though their own father or sibling served...you bet.

Draft dodgers are and always will be buddy fuckers, and cowards.

Jimmy Stewart served even though he was the biggest star in hollywood and had an easy life.

Men during WWII went home in shame, and hung themselves in the barn for being rejected upon trying to enlist.

Draft dodgers are pieces of shit.

[JohnRich 4]

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WOW John OH MY GOD. If you found something wrong with one of my threads then it must be true. How will I deal with the shame??????

That's your problem. Deal with it.

Are we supposed to be voting on what we think of draft dodgers?
Or those that risk their life for something that they don't believe in?
Or those who run when their home is invaded?
Or those who fight to protect what is theirs?

You talked about four different scenarios, and didn't specify which one the poll was about. A rather large, fatal flaw.

Forget about that job working for the Gallup organization.

If America attacks Iran, are you going to be brave and run home and pick up an AK47 to fight for your native country? Or would you let yourself be seen as a traitor for living with the enemy?

[SpeedRacer 1]

what if they don't believe the war is just?

Is it honorable or dishonorable to fight in a war that you believe in your heart is unjust?

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[warpedskydiver 0]

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what if they don't believe the war is just?

Is it honorable or dishonorable to fight in a war that you believe in your heart is unjust?

So fighting just to protect your buddies is not good enough eh?

When it comes down to one simple fact of being right or wrong, how does anyone ever really know what the answer truly is?

You fight so that undue death and suffering may be avoided, an assured victory or non-protracted war is the surest way.

If you are called and refuse you should turn in your citizenship and never return.

Good damned thing all the dead veterans in this country and those of our allies, had the courage to do so or all the peaceniks and protesters in the world would be bitching about life in the uranium mines, or gulags.

Peace and beneolence, are the priveledge of the free.

[SpeedRacer 1]

If your buddies went & jumped out of an airplane would you.......oh wait. never mind.


no seriously:
by your argument we should never question any war. If any soldiers are going, no matter how stupid the war, we should all go.

With that mentality the Government could just unquestioningly launch any war at all, no matter how stupid, and we'd all just have to march in there like sheep.

this is exactly why there shouldn't be a draft at all. It avoids this moral conflict.

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[warpedskydiver 0]

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If your buddies went & jumped out of an airplane would you.......oh wait. never mind.


no seriously:
by your argument we should never question any war. If any soldiers are going, no matter how stupid the war, we should all go.

With that mentality the Government could just unquestioningly launch any war at all, no matter how stupid, and we'd all just have to march in there like sheep.

this is exactly why there shouldn't be a draft at all. It avoids this moral conflict.

You can question and vote all you want, but when you are called you had better be a fucking man, not a maggot.

We do have the best military in the world by using volunteers, typically conscripts are less than desirable, not all will put forth the effort needed.

[JohnnyD 0]

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It is unclear exactly what question it is to which the poll applies, and thus the results are meaningless.

Which is totally different than a poll about the _possibility_ that there may be _proposed_ legislation in the _UK_ regarding the efficiency of household appliances. Now THAT is meaningful.

[pirana 0]

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To dodge the draft in order to not fight and protect the friends, relatives, and other Americans that you don't even know, is cowardly.

Draft dodgers must feel that they are somehow better than everyone else, and therefore should not have to serve no matter what the cost, or how it is done.

Would anyone dodge the draft even though their own father or sibling served...you bet.

That's a bizarre statement. I really don't get it at all. To not fight to protect people I don't know is cowardly?

Of course this assumes they need protection. Unfortunately, Vietnam wasn't about protecting anybody. It was about ignorant politicians caught up in the emotional momentum of a historical accident.

I didn't dodge, but I was ready and would have had my number been called. I got pulled #73 in the lottery just before the war ended. As far as my parents, my Dad did serve, and I had their full support. They were not willing to send their son off to die in some jungle half a world away because some politicians had their head up their ass when it came to certain foreign policies. (I inherited a strong disdain for blind loyalty from them).

I did not think I was better than everybody else; just must have had a different opinion or threshold on what was wortth dying for. I did not think I should die for a cause that even the politicos could not define without sounding like fools.

LBJ, at the time of winning the Vice-Presidency, could not even locate Vietnam on a world map. Had no idea where to look. Pathetic.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Men during WWII went home in shame, and hung themselves in the barn for being rejected upon trying to enlist.

Assuming they were rejected for a bona fide reason; going home and commiting suicide is a sure sign of mental disorder.

Give it up. So far your statements show no logic whatsoever.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[warpedskydiver 0]

It is quite obvious that you never served, or you would understand me a bit more clearly.

[Amazon 7]

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With that mentality the Government could just unquestioningly launch any war at all, no matter how stupid, and we'd all just have to march in there like sheep.

Now where haveI seen this before....oh thats right.. nevermind..

[SpeedRacer 1]

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but when you are called you had better be a fucking man, not a maggot.

A fucking man makes fucking moral decisions.

If he has any moral courage he doesn't just blindly surrender his conscience to the Almighty Government like a fucking sheep.

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[Nightingale 0]

I think a draft is a bad idea, mainly because if I was in the middle of a combat zone, I wouldn't want to trust the job of watching my back to a guy who didn't want to be there to begin with.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Except that it is not the only way. It's a choice.

You are 100% right sir. It is a choice But a choice that would often not even be considered if you had money.

The first Gulf War started up right as I graduated high school. Many in my class ended up in the Marines and we're talking about a very well to do high school in Orange County, CA. These men had choices.

Fast forward a decade and you have Pat Tillman as the poster boy for those who believed in the mission without regard for their own personal wealth.

I have no doubt that the volunteers skew very highly towards to the poor and somewhat on minorities (though it appears blacks are not overrepresented, may be the opposite). But everyone has other choices, and many who have many other choices still opt for military service because they believe in it. And those are the kind of soldiers we want, hopefully won't be wasting any more.