"Sicko", revisited

[mnealtx 0]

From ABC:

Snippage - see the webpage for more:

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Moore says in the film, "I asked [the Havana hospital] to give us the same exact care they give their fellow Cuban citizens. No more, no less. And that's what they did."

The Debate

Moore sat down with "20/20's" John Stossel and talked about that claim. When asked whether it really was an average hospital, Moore said, "Yes."

"This isn't just me saying this, you know. All the world health organizations or whatever have confirmed that if there's one thing they do right in Cuba, it's health care," Moore said. "And there's very little debate about that."

In fact, there is plenty of debate. Miami-based Cuban Human Rights activist Jose Carro says Moore's movie paints an inaccurate picture.

Hopefully this will make some people realize that socialized medicine isn't the cornucopia that Moore portrays it as.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[sv3n 0]

You your argument is that since we're rated 37th on the international healthcare evaluation and that cuba is ranked 39th that they have worse healthcare than we do? I would sort of agree with you on that.

I don't believe it speaks about the utopian socialized medicine system though..............you can't pick number 39 on the list and say that specific style of healthcare sucks, that's like picking the slowest car on a team and deciding the overall winner of the race by which team has the fastest slow-car.

Here's only up to number 39, since we're ranked 37 and cuba is ranked 39. so how many of these are socialized medicine and how many are not?

Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba

...and you're in violation of your face!

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

From ABC:

Snippage - see the webpage for more:

Quote

Moore says in the film, "I asked [the Havana hospital] to give us the same exact care they give their fellow Cuban citizens. No more, no less. And that's what they did."

The Debate

Moore sat down with "20/20's" John Stossel and talked about that claim. When asked whether it really was an average hospital, Moore said, "Yes."

"This isn't just me saying this, you know. All the world health organizations or whatever have confirmed that if there's one thing they do right in Cuba, it's health care," Moore said. "And there's very little debate about that."

In fact, there is plenty of debate. Miami-based Cuban Human Rights activist Jose Carro says Moore's movie paints an inaccurate picture.

Hopefully this will make some people realize that socialized medicine isn't the cornucopia that Moore portrays it as.

That really isn't hard core proof, just someone making that claim. I haven't bothered to see Sicko as I know how bad it is here in this country from my own experience and from those around me. I don't care if it is better elsewhere, I just want ours to get better but I don't see that happening anytime in the next decade or so as there is no money to be made by improving it.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[lawrocket 3]

All of them are socialized. To suggest that the US is not socialized is eqregious error.

All the report did was seek to rank which countries did socialized medicine best - according to their rating scheme.

Read the report.

Read the report.

Read the report.

p.s - he report is from 2000. It ranked on the criteria of which sytems best combined:
1) Population health;
2) How "effectively" the government spends money on health;
3) How "well" the public health system prevents illness versus just treating illness; and
4) How "fairly" the public health system treats minorities, poor and special populations.


See, I've read the study (it took me a day, but I did it)

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[1969912 0]

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Read the report.

Read the report.

Read the report.

Fat chance!

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[sv3n 0]

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All of them are socialized. To suggest that the US is not socialized is eqregious error.

All the report did was seek to rank which countries did socialized medicine best - according to their rating scheme.

Read the report.

Read the report.

Read the report.

p.s - he report is from 2000. It ranked on the criteria of which sytems best combined:
1) Population health;
2) How "effectively" the government spends money on health;
3) How "well" the public health system prevents illness versus just treating illness; and
4) How "fairly" the public health system treats minorities, poor and special populations.


See, I've read the study (it took me a day, but I did it)

Right.

Stating that Cuba's health system is worse than ours when the report says so is like stating the obvious. But then trying to argue that for that reason socialized medicine sucks is just plain stupid as those systems above our 37th place are socialized medicine.

But I also would not label the US as having a socialized healthcare system either......we may have a couple of parts of our healthcare system that are socializd, things like medicare. But they are ineffecient and run by people who couldn't budget a popsicle stand. The majority of our healthcare system is like a feudal system where the higher class workers get good healthcare and the lower class "scum" can get bent.....it's all about the benjamins.

And yes, I disagree with that.....using one standard across the board would make things cheaper. Letting companies giver their workers sub-par healthcare to save costs is BS....it's just another way for the rich to save a few million while the poor are scrambling to make rent. Allowing things like pre-existing conditions does the same thing....it's more BS, just another way for them to not cover stuff when you're paying for healthcare insurance.

The reason we got ranked so low on that list is because our population health is down when compared to those other countries, because our government budgets and spends money inefficiently on healthcare, our current system ineffectively prevents sickness, and our system does not treat everyone fairly.....everyone does not get the same coverage, etc. etc.. And that's true, it's that simple.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[sv3n 0]

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Read the report.

Read the report.

Read the report.

Fat chance!

Was that a shot?

...and you're in violation of your face!

[mnealtx 0]

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we may have a couple of parts of our healthcare system that are socializd, things like medicare. But they are ineffecient and run by people who couldn't budget a popsicle stand.

And yet, you want those SAME people to run ALL of it???

Yeah, that makes sense...have the same folks that couldn't keep a WHOREHOUSE in the black run the healthcare services.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,183]

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we may have a couple of parts of our healthcare system that are socializd, things like medicare. But they are ineffecient and run by people who couldn't budget a popsicle stand.

And yet, you want those SAME people to run ALL of it???

Yeah, that makes sense...have the same folks that couldn't keep a WHOREHOUSE in the black run the healthcare services.

And they run the military too, and the police, and the fire services.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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we may have a couple of parts of our healthcare system that are socializd, things like medicare. But they are ineffecient and run by people who couldn't budget a popsicle stand.

And yet, you want those SAME people to run ALL of it???

Yeah, that makes sense...have the same folks that couldn't keep a WHOREHOUSE in the black run the healthcare services.

And they run the military too, and the police, and the fire services.

Military, yes... police/fire, no - those are local gov't (small distinction and probably not much difference, but there it is).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Guest]

I've also noticed that the majority of those countries are tiny.

It must be much easier to manage on such a small scale.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[rehmwa 2]

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I've also noticed that the majority of those countries are tiny.

It must be much easier to manage on such a small scale.

and the truth shall set you free....

this is a good "option" for states (which are much more analogous to typical 'countries' elsewhere) to try and do, but it's certainly should NOT rely on federal redistributions of funds.

If it's such a great deal, then people will move to those states and eventually those states that don't do it will change their minds and implement their own programs.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[1969912 0]

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Read the report.

Read the report.

Read the report.

Fat chance!

Was that a shot?

Yeah. Discussing the WHO report is meaningless if you don't know what they measured, and how they did it.


Go to the website for "Doctors Without Borders" and see how many of the top ranked countries have relied on volunteer medical care from DWB because they cannot care for everyone in their country on their own.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

Put an asterisk next to the name of each country in your list that has needed help from DWB.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[kallend 2,183]

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I've also noticed that the majority of those countries are tiny.

It must be much easier to manage on such a small scale.

and the truth shall set you free....

this is a good "option" for states (which are much more analogous to typical 'countries' elsewhere) to try and do, but it's certainly should NOT rely on federal redistributions of funds.

If it's such a great deal, then people will move to those states and eventually those states that don't do it will change their minds and implement their own programs.

Maybe the same idea would work with defense expenditures too. All paid for at the state level; paying more than you want? Move to a different state. Iowa doesn't need much in the way of an army or navy. Those southerners can pay to build their own wall.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Maybe the same idea would work with defense expenditures too. All paid for at the state level; paying more than you want? Move to a different state. Iowa doesn't need much in the way of an army or navy. Those southerners can pay to build their own wall.

That's beautiful. "national" defense is handled at the state level. I'm crushed. Totally flattened at your amazing debating skills.

apples and oranges prof. apples and oranges

If you don't want to put forth even a decent attempt, why do you bother?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sv3n 0]

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we may have a couple of parts of our healthcare system that are socializd, things like medicare. But they are ineffecient and run by people who couldn't budget a popsicle stand.

And yet, you want those SAME people to run ALL of it???

Yeah, that makes sense...have the same folks that couldn't keep a WHOREHOUSE in the black run the healthcare services.

No, I want other people who have actual business sense to run it......people who aren't purchased through contribution funds or incentives.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[masterblaster72 0]

Michael Moore is an abject ass whose films aren't even worth the attention they get.

There are so many honest ways to make the point he's trying to make, and he doesn't need to insult the intelligence of his viewers with his bullshit. But he's too lazy to get the job done the right way. His figure is a perfect reflection of that laziness.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[mnealtx 0]

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we may have a couple of parts of our healthcare system that are socializd, things like medicare. But they are ineffecient and run by people who couldn't budget a popsicle stand.

And yet, you want those SAME people to run ALL of it???

Yeah, that makes sense...have the same folks that couldn't keep a WHOREHOUSE in the black run the healthcare services.

No, I want other people who have actual business sense to run it......people who aren't purchased through contribution funds or incentives.

You're the one advocating a national healthcare system... that means it's going to be fed.gov running it....but good to know you're finally starting to open your eyes to the glaring problems associated with it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[1969912 0]

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Read the report.

Read the report.

Read the report.

Fat chance!

Was that a shot?

Yeah. Discussing the WHO report is meaningless if you don't know what they measured, and how they did it.


Go to the website for "Doctors Without Borders" and see how many of the top ranked countries have relied on volunteer medical care from DWB because they cannot care for everyone in their country on their own.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

Put an asterisk next to the name of each country in your list that has needed help from DWB.

No response so far. Does the need for international volunteer emergency healthcare assistance not matter? Apparently, the WHO doesn't think it's important in re their study.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[sv3n 0]

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we may have a couple of parts of our healthcare system that are socializd, things like medicare. But they are ineffecient and run by people who couldn't budget a popsicle stand.

And yet, you want those SAME people to run ALL of it???

Yeah, that makes sense...have the same folks that couldn't keep a WHOREHOUSE in the black run the healthcare services.

No, I want other people who have actual business sense to run it......people who aren't purchased through contribution funds or incentives.

You're the one advocating a national healthcare system... that means it's going to be fed.gov running it....but good to know you're finally starting to open your eyes to the glaring problems associated with it.

Having one national system would be the most efficient way to run healthcare...........rather than a mess of different systems, you only have to deal with one.

If current leadership is not good enough to do it, then we need new leadership. This is what these people get paid for.....if they're not competant to do their job then they should get fired. No, I'm not blind to the problems with it. But let's get there first and then worry about the little problems. Get everybody covered, then worry about perfecting it.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[mnealtx 0]

As I stated above, I'm a little leery of giving any more money than absolutely necessary to a group of folks that can't even keep a whorehouse running in the black...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[sv3n 0]

Quote

Go to the website for "Doctors Without Borders" and see how many of the top ranked countries have relied on volunteer medical care from DWB because they cannot care for everyone in their country on their own.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

Put an asterisk next to the name of each country in your list that has needed help from DWB.

No response so far. Does the need for international volunteer emergency healthcare assistance not matter? Apparently, the WHO doesn't think it's important in re their study.

[sv3n 0]

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As I stated above, I'm a little leery of giving any more money than absolutely necessary to a group of folks that can't even keep a whorehouse running in the black...

I'm not disagreeing with you there, but if they're not fit to run it........put somebody in that job who can. We shouldn't be saying let's not do it because they can't do the job right.......we should be saying let's get somebody in there that will do the job right.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[Royd 0]

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Then again last year we had what.......18,000 people die because they couldn't afford healthcare

How many people died who could afford healthcare? Maybe lack of healthcare isn't what's killing them.

[lawrocket 3]

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Stating that Cuba's health system is worse than ours when the report says so is like stating the obvious. But then trying to argue that for that reason socialized medicine sucks is just plain stupid as those systems above our 37th place are socialized medicine.

Cuba's program may be the best in the world - if that's what you are looking for. That is, a system that provides some of the best care in the world for foreigners with money or for the governmental elite and lets the citizens wither on the vine.

What's the best car in the world? What's the best dinner entree in the world? What is the best national park? What is the best name for a boy? What is the best television show?

What is the best healthcare system? You are arguing your idea of the "best." As is WHO. And because of YOUR belief, everybody should be forced into it.

I have my beliefs, too. Socialized health care? Fine, but let me opt out of it. It's not best for me. But I DO know that there is no such thing as a $15k car that can go 230 mph and get 40mpg, which is the functional equivalent of what people want from healthcare. It can't happen.

My wife is hotter than your wife.