Bush in Vietnam warning over Iraq

[shropshire 0]

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President George W Bush has warned a US withdrawal from Iraq could trigger the kind of upheaval seen in South East Asia after US forces quit Vietnam.

"The price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens," he told war veterans in Missouri.

Mr Bush said the Vietnam War had taught the need for US patience over Iraq.

How the fuck would HE know?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kallend 2,114]

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President George W Bush has warned a US withdrawal from Iraq could trigger the kind of upheaval seen in South East Asia after US forces quit Vietnam.

"The price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens," he told war veterans in Missouri.

Mr Bush said the Vietnam War had taught the need for US patience over Iraq.

How the fuck would HE know?

US occupation of the Philippines is a better model. Continuous unrest until the US left.

The lesson of Vietnam is that the dominoes didn't fall, and the whole region would have been better off without the US presence.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nerdgirl 0]

A simililar question was asked last night on the news program of US National Public Radio (NPR).

"All Things Considered, August 22, 2007 · To find out which historical analogy best suits the U.S. situation in Iraq, Robert Siegel talks with several scholars:" http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=13872684

Prof Francis Fukuyama (School of International Studies at Johns Hopkins University) thought the analogy was "not bad" and thought that it was much better than the "way overstated" comparison to WWII or the Cold War.

Prof Joseph Nye (Harvard) generally agreed with Bush's comparison. He did note the lack of strong central power to take over and "preserve order" in Iraq after a potential fall, unlike North Vietnam. He also suggested the Britain in Iraq in the 1920s and Boer Wars as useful analogies.

Dr. Max Boot (Council on Foreign Relations) didn't disagree but suggested that given that the Iraq and Afghanistan are ongoing, the best historical analogy is yet to be determined. He also suggested that the British in Malaysia and the French in Algeria might be more apt analogies.

Prof Ronald Steel (University of Southern California), like Kallend, references the counterinsurgency and occupation of the Philippines.

I'm inclined to look to the Algerian and Philippine cases for lessons, although none seem to capture the heterogenous culture and internal religious conflicts as exist in Iraq. Sri Lanka may provide insight.

A potential analogy if a Biden-like plan was enacted is the former Yugoslavia -- some parts are doing a lot better than others -- which is itself a less-than-perfect analogy.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 3,085]

Remember the good ol' days of 2003, where anyone who compared Iraq to Vietnam was called a clueless defeatist? Now we have our own president making the comparison. Makes you wonder what the comparisons will be in another 4 years.

[piper17 1]

A rather disingenuous comment. When the Dems were comparing Iraq to Vietnam, they were claiming Iraq to be a quagmire and unwinnable. While it has taken far too long, it would appear that the US government, led by the US military, has finally realised that what is going on in Iraq is an insurgency and is now being fought as such. Many Republicans and some Democrats are finally recognizing that the situation is improving and are saying so. While it is no "done deal" by any means, it does seem to be moving in the right direction now.

Bush is talking about the aftermath of the US pullout of Vietnam (and much of SEA) and the bloodbath that occurred in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam (to say nothing of the communists' "re-education" camps, boat people etc).

The Democrats don't like the references to the US pullout of RVN and the subsequent Congressional cut-off of financial and logistical support of the ARVN.
They hate to be reminded of the "killing fields" of SEA but they seem determined to repeat it in the Middle East.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[NCclimber 0]

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A rather disingenuous comment.

From Billvon?

I'm sure it was unintentional.

[billvon 3,085]

>When the Dems were comparing Iraq to Vietnam, they were
>claiming Iraq to be a quagmire and unwinnable.

It may be winnable; it may not be. US generals (who presumably know more about it than you or I) now claim we cannot accomplish our original goals. It is certainly a quagmire; a war that lasts more than four years and claims ~4000 US lives, when it was predicted to last less than six months and be light on casualties, is a quagmire in anyone's book. They got that right.

>Bush is talking about the aftermath of the US pullout of Vietnam . . .

Sort of the de rigeur answer. When the democrats made the comparison, it was invalid; when Bush makes a similar comparison, it is valid. (Of course, three years ago, when asked about a similar comparison Bush said "This is, in many ways, religious in nature, and I don't see the parallels.")

We pulled out of Vietnam in 1975. Rapidly the North Vietnamese took over the South, and with little bloodshed unified Vietnam. (Under a government we didn't like, of course, but violence rapidly disappeared in that country.) The domino effect did not occur; all the dire predictions of the war supporters about how the new communist state would cause irreparable harm to the US turned out to be false.

Today we have trade relations with them, and the country is relatively peaceful, albeit socialist. Is that really the aftermath we must avoid at all costs?

(Note that we DO have to avoid what happened in Cambodia. But we stopped Iraq from going into Kuwait; keeping them contained again will be no harder than it was in the 80's.)

[jakee 1,566]

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While it has taken far too long, it would appear that the US government, led by the US military, has finally realised that what is going on in Iraq is an insurgency and is now being fought as such.

Finally realised? What did they think was going on for the last 4 years?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,114]

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While it has taken far too long, it would appear that the US government, led by the US military, has finally realised that what is going on in Iraq is an insurgency and is now being fought as such.

Finally realised? What did they think was going on for the last 4 years?

The Iraqis were picking flowers to throw before our troops?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[joedirt 0]

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We pulled out of Vietnam in 1975. Rapidly the North Vietnamese took over the South, and with little bloodshed unified Vietnam. (Under a government we didn't like, of course, but violence rapidly disappeared in that country.

Painting it a little rosy aren't ya.

[Guest]

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President George W Bush has warned a US withdrawal from Iraq could trigger the kind of upheaval seen in South East Asia after US forces quit Vietnam.

"The price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens," he told war veterans in Missouri.

Mr Bush said the Vietnam War had taught the need for US patience over Iraq.

How the fuck would HE know?

US occupation of the Philippines is a better model. Continuous unrest until the US left.

The lesson of Vietnam is that the dominoes didn't fall, and the whole region would have been better off without the US presence.

So what happened in Laos and Cambodia was just someone's imagination. That's reassuring.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[NCclimber 0]

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We pulled out of Vietnam in 1975. Rapidly the North Vietnamese took over the South, and with little bloodshed unified Vietnam. (Under a government we didn't like, of course, but violence rapidly disappeared in that country.

Painting it a little rosy aren't ya.

What next? He gonna tell us the "Mao era" was a period of peace and prosperity, embraced by all the Chinese people?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Remember the good ol' days of 2003, where anyone who compared Iraq to Vietnam was called a clueless defeatist? Now we have our own president making the comparison. Makes you wonder what the comparisons will be in another 4 years.

I was thinking the same thing when I head GW make this statement. If I had some free time I would pull up a search of every time this came up, and how every GW supporter said it was a poor comparison in SC.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[kallend 2,114]

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President George W Bush has warned a US withdrawal from Iraq could trigger the kind of upheaval seen in South East Asia after US forces quit Vietnam.

"The price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens," he told war veterans in Missouri.

Mr Bush said the Vietnam War had taught the need for US patience over Iraq.

How the fuck would HE know?

US occupation of the Philippines is a better model. Continuous unrest until the US left.

The lesson of Vietnam is that the dominoes didn't fall, and the whole region would have been better off without the US presence.

So what happened in Laos and Cambodia was just someone's imagination. That's reassuring.

mh
.

What happened in Laos and Cambodia was a direct consequence of the US interference in SE Asia.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[piper17 1]

Little bloodshed???

Where were you in the 70s and 80s. Obviously, too young to read newspapers, watch the news, read books, or listen to personal accounts.

Ever hear of the "killing fields", boat people being preyed upon by pirates, Thai refugee camps filled with South Vietnamese escaping from the communists, re-education camps (where thousands died of starvation, beatings, etc)? Are you the same as John Kerry who seems to think that these events are of no real consequence?

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[NCclimber 0]

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President George W Bush has warned a US withdrawal from Iraq could trigger the kind of upheaval seen in South East Asia after US forces quit Vietnam.

"The price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens," he told war veterans in Missouri.

Mr Bush said the Vietnam War had taught the need for US patience over Iraq.

How the fuck would HE know?

US occupation of the Philippines is a better model. Continuous unrest until the US left.

The lesson of Vietnam is that the dominoes didn't fall, and the whole region would have been better off without the US presence.

So what happened in Laos and Cambodia was just someone's imagination. That's reassuring.

mh
.

What happened in Laos and Cambodia was a direct consequence of the US interference in SE Asia.

I thought we were comparing other past situations in the context of how to withdraw from Iraq.

"We never should have done it in the first place" doesn't really further the discussion, now does it?

[kallend 2,114]

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President George W Bush has warned a US withdrawal from Iraq could trigger the kind of upheaval seen in South East Asia after US forces quit Vietnam.

"The price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens," he told war veterans in Missouri.

Mr Bush said the Vietnam War had taught the need for US patience over Iraq.

How the fuck would HE know?

US occupation of the Philippines is a better model. Continuous unrest until the US left.

The lesson of Vietnam is that the dominoes didn't fall, and the whole region would have been better off without the US presence.

So what happened in Laos and Cambodia was just someone's imagination. That's reassuring.

mh
.

What happened in Laos and Cambodia was a direct consequence of the US interference in SE Asia.

I thought we were comparing other past situations in the context of how to withdraw from Iraq.

"We never should have done it in the first place" doesn't really further the discussion, now does it?

Yes, it does. When our presence is the source of the problem, continuing it doesn't help.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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I thought we were comparing other past situations in the context of how to withdraw from Iraq.

"We never should have done it in the first place" doesn't really further the discussion, now does it?

Yes, it does. When our presence is the source of the problem, continuing it doesn't help.

That doublespeak you do is impressive. First you say we never should have done it in the first place furthers the discussion and back it up with "continuing it doesn't help".

So which issue are you addressing?

[billvon 3,085]

> Little bloodshed???

Yes, little bloodshed in Vietnam.

>Ever hear of the "killing fields" . . .

Google "killing fields." (Hint - they're not in Vietnam, which I why I mentioned the need to keep Iraq contained, as we've done before.)

>boat people being preyed upon by pirates . . . .

We've got that right now; two million Iraqi "boat people" have fled the violence we've caused. So you've already caused what you are claiming the Bush plan can avoid. In that way the war has already failed.

>Thai refugee camps filled with South Vietnamese escaping from the
>communists . . .

. . . and Syrian refugee camps filled with Iraqis escaping from the violence we caused.

>Are you the same as John Kerry who seems to think that these events are
>of no real consequence?

Nope. Are you the same as Bush who doesn't care how many people we kill in Iraq, or hpw many US soldiers die?

The bottom line is that in Vietnam, after we left, violence DECREASED. Bad stuff happened outside the borders; the equivalent in the Middle East would be Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. We stopped that easily, because that's what we're good at (opposing military attacks.) Time to get back to what we are good at (fighting military wars when needed) and away from what we are bad at (occupying countries and forcing our will on people who don't want us there.)

[kallend 2,114]

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I thought we were comparing other past situations in the context of how to withdraw from Iraq.

"We never should have done it in the first place" doesn't really further the discussion, now does it?

Yes, it does. When our presence is the source of the problem, continuing it doesn't help.

That doublespeak you do is impressive. First you say we never should have done it in the first place furthers the discussion and back it up with "continuing it doesn't help".

So which issue are you addressing?

For the benefit of the deliberately obtuse, a cure for most problems is to remove the source of the problem. In Iraq, the source of the problem was US, is US, and will continue to be US as long as we stay there.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[piper17 1]

The Vietnam war included Laos and Cambodia, in case you are ignorant of the fact. The PAVN used these countries as sanctuaries and logistical bases. US special ops forces operated in these countries throughout the war and the regular forces invaded Cambodia in 1970 to disrupt the PAVN efforts in an effort to buy time for Vietnamization to work.

You still don't want to admit that tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Vietnamese died in re-education camps and attempting to flee the country in the years following the "liberation" of the Republic of South Vietnam by the communist north.

Do you remember that China invaded North Vietnam in 1979 and their respective armies fought in Vietnam and Cambodia at great loss of life on both sides and to the civilian population as well?

Keep Iraq contained??? With Iran and Syria deeply inolved in supplying arms of all types to the insurgents? Barn door is wide open and the horses are long done on that front! The insurgents in Iraq that have been captured or killed are from muslim countries all over the world. This is a GLOBAL war...and there is no containing it!

I am concerned about the number of innocent Iraqi people being killed but, in case you haven't noticed, they are being killed almost entirely by the insurgents.

As far US and coalition troops being killed, as an Army veteran (1967-1970), I am well aware of the cost in US and coalition troops lives...just as I was aware of the loss of lives of my fellow soldiers (friends) forty years ago!

As far as violence in Vietnam decreasing in the years since we left, I guess you say the same about the Soviet Union after Stalin's purges, gulags, etc, Castro's Cuba, North Korea, the PRC and every other communist country in the world.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-69-524/life_society/boat_people/

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-524-2706/life_society/boat_people/clip2

If you think the killing by the communist Vietnamese has stopped, read about the Montagnards and what the Vietnamese communist government continues to do to them today here:

http://www.montagnard-foundation.org/homepage.html

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[NCclimber 0]

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In Iraq, the source of the problem was US, is US, and will continue to be US as long as we stay there.

But that's only part of the picture. What happens if we withdraw a.s.a.p.?

As I see it, this is our mess. If we walk away, the consequences with be monumental and long term. And yes, I'm aware of the costs of remaining. I'm just not sure what course of action is for the best.

[kallend 2,114]

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The Vietnam war included Laos and Cambodia, in case you are ignorant of the fact. The PAVN used these countries as sanctuaries and logistical bases. US special ops forces operated in these countries throughout the war and the regular forces invaded Cambodia in 1970 to disrupt the PAVN efforts in an effort to buy time for Vietnamization to work.

Had the US not been in Nam, there would have been no need for the NV to have been using Laos and Cambodia for sanctuary.

The domino theory is completely discredited.

Foreign armies of occupation are almost always a source of resentment and friction.

Very occasionally irritants produce pearls, but in Vietnam and Iraq, gangrene seems to be the outcome.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,085]

> The Vietnam war included Laos and Cambodia, in case you are ignorant of the fact.

I was aware of that. Perhaps if you re-read my previous post you will note that I said that VIETNAM was largely peaceful after we left. So the claim "Iraq will fall to pieces if we leave" is not supportable by that analogy.

Just as in Vietnam, we will, of course, be at risk for further instability in that area. The equivalents of Laos and Cambodia in the Middle East might be Turkey (Kurdistan) Iran, Kuwait and Syria, all of whom have dogs in this fight. However, as we have proven, it's easier to stop invasions than to quell domestic violence.

Play to our strengths - stop working to our weaknesses.

>Keep Iraq contained???

Yes. We did it effectively for 20 years, thus proving we can.

> With Iran and Syria deeply inolved in supplying arms of all types to the
>insurgents?

Right. Just as we're supplying arms to the Iranian insurgents right now, we supplied arms to the islamic terrorists during the 1980's, we supplied intelligence to Saddam when he was fighting Iran, and we supplied the Iraqi insurgents during the 1990's. It's quite the popular thing to do, and we would be hypocrites to claim that it's wrong.

>The insurgents in Iraq that have been captured or killed are from muslim
> countries all over the world.

That's a popular lie; makes it seem like we're fighting global terror instead of Iraqis who want us out. But in fact more than 99% of the insurgents we have captured are from Iraq.

------------------
Headlines for July 16, 2007

Report: Nearly Half of Foreign Militants in Iraq Are Saudi

The Los Angeles Times is reporting that nearly half of all foreign militants targeting U.S. troops in Iraq have come from Saudi Arabia – one of Washington's closest allies in the Middle East. Of the 19,000 prisoners being held by the U.S. in Iraq only 135 are foreign-born fighters and half of them are Saudi. U.S. officials have so far refused to publicly criticize Saudi Arabia's role in Iraq.
-----------------------------

[freethefly 6]

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Bush is talking about the aftermath of the US pullout of Vietnam (and much of SEA) and the bloodbath that occurred in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam (to say nothing of the communists' "re-education" camps, boat people etc).

Do you not realize that the South Vietnam government was a puppet government of the U.S. and that it was not wanted by the people of Vietnam? The fall of Saigon was the result of a government that did not have the will or the support of the people. The U.S. involvement only created problems that would not had arose had the U.S. stayed out of Vietnam. The same in Iraq. The problems the Iraqi people face today are the direct result of the U.S. invasion. Had the U.S. not invaded, nearly 4000 Americans would still be alive. Thousands of more would still have their arms and legs. Thousands more would not be suffering from mental illness. There would not be an increase in suicides, divorces, spousal abuse, child abuse, alcholism, drug addiction, homeless and crime associated with military personnel. The same could be said for the Iraqi people who must live with their country being used by the U.S. for war games. Maybe Bush's big plan was to draw Al Quida into Iraq and to use Iraq as his own personal Killing Field.
Whether the U.S. stays or leaves the killing will continue since the ball has already been set in motion. How long until the Kurds attack Turkey? Or, Turkey attacks the Kurds. The U.S. has made it perfectly clear that attacking a country whom who don't like is the right thing to do. If it is quite alright for the U.S. to attack whomever it pleases then we have no say over anyother country whom wishes to attack whoever.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young