You are not supposed to draw that in school

[Douva 0]

I never would have made it through school under the "zero tolerance" policies of today. I can remember killing time in fifth grade drawing an epic battle scene between a bunch of stick figures, including a bunch of heavily armed stick figures and a few dead and dismembered stick figures. I also spent a lot of time writing short stories about cowboy shootouts and that sort of thing. In seventh grade we were supposed to write an essay about a person who gets offered drugs at a party, detailing his response and the consequences of that response. I wrote about a guy who gets so high that when the cops show up to bust the party, he runs out into the front yard and starts trying to shoot at them but instead ends up shooting plastic yard flamingos until one of the officers shoots him in the chest. He dies of a sucking chest wound. I wonder if a story about a drug fueled shootout with law enforcement officers would fly in today's "zero tolerance" educational environment.

The problem with "zero tolerance" is that it doesn't differentiate between creative expression and true indications of violent tendencies. A kid who writes a brilliant short story about a murder plot is not in the same category as the kid who "jokingly" makes a list of people he'd like to kill. Telling a little boy he can't draw a picture of Indiana Jones carrying a gun and running from a bunch of men with swords is another symptom of the inability of most traditional school systems to deal with the natural energy and aggressiveness of little boys. Little boys like Indiana Jones, and there's no reason that needs to change.

The following is not a sexist statement; it is a matter of historical and scientific fact: Schools, as we now know them, were designed by women to accommodate the temperament and learning style of girls. Sitting still and absorbing information comes naturally for most girls. Boys, on the other hand, have evolved to be hunters/gathers/fighters, and sitting in a desk and listening to a teacher talk is somewhat unnatural for them. (This is why recent studies have found that girls do much better in all-girl schools. The difficulty most boys have functioning in a traditional classroom environment often leads them to behave in ways that are distracting to the girls around them--as if we really needed a study to tell us that.) Boys need outlets for their natural energy and aggression, and it's not healthy for teachers to needlessly limit those outlets (i.e., by telling boys they can't draw pictures of people with swords and guns).

Many people seem to have this misguided notion that because we live in a modern, relatively civilized society, the natural tendencies of boys, which took millions of years to evolve, are somehow antiquated or unnecessary or downright bad. That is simply not true. Boys will be boys, and nobody should try to change that. Having to endure an unnatural setting for seven hours a day is simply one of the prices boys pay for having a "Y" chromosome, but we shouldn't take away what few outlets they have--artistic or otherwise--for that pent-up energy.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[pirana 0]

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Yes, those damn "local residents" - isn't that still not faceless enough for you?

We like it when they agree with us, we are outraged when they don't. It's really a sucky position to be in. I'm surprised people want to teach. Or coach. Or do day care., ...........

It's worse than that. It's Those Darn Humans.

p.s. - Coaching is easy. You just make them run laps until you break their will.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rehmwa 2]

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I would venture to guess that this is just a bit of CYA for the teacher.

AGREED (that damn school board, and voters)

***kid that just needs a little lesson on what is appropriate

[Zipp0 1]

Can drama clubs even do Shakespeare anymore? I mean, in the end there are at least 3 stabbings in every play.

What about war, where people are shot? Can they see a picture of a gun?

What a fucked up world it is becoming.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Richards 0]

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***If he makes an imaginary gun gesture with his thumb and forefinger will he be banished from the school ystem?

Why not? I was

Was it just a playfull gesture or was there more to the story?

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I wonder how the opinions on this forum would differ if a child drew stcik figures with breasts and penises (penii? )

[pirana 0]

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>I hear talk of them wanting ID or creationism in the curriculum WITH evolution . . .

From the Discovery Institute, the leading proponent of ID:

"Governing Goals -

* To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God. "


>the reverse is certainly true in certain schools, but predominantly,
>it's the libs banning thought in this area.

I have never seen any liberals opposed to teaching creationism in a class on religion. (Not to say they don't exist, but if they do, they are in a very small minority.)

I think liberals and conservatives, or repubs and dems, are not accurate labels for the people most vested in this issue. The battle is dominated by religious fundamentalists on one side and scientists on the other. True, the fundamentalists appear to be pretty hard core right wingers, but I would not lump them in with all the conservatives and republicans any more than I would lump all classic liberals in with the hard core greenie-peta-treehuggin-nuke gay whales crowd.

As an aside - the reason this issue is so hard to put away once and for all is that the science crowd does not in general see the DI group as even worthy of debate - and rightly so in my opinion. They pretty much feel it is ridiculous for dignified bonafide researchers to have to go tit-for-tat toe-to-toe with the lunatic fringe that makes up the fundamentalist crowd. I think they find it hard to believe that any serious segment of humans would even consider the creationist drivel worth listening to. (And from the reading I have done, the US is where the nutjobs get a their only significant audience).

To the scientists who have spent their life actually doing the work to get where we are at, it is an insult to even have to acknowledge these goofballs exist, much less share the floor with them in a public forum.

The Dover trial is probably about the only kind of forum that they feel is likely to provide them the setting to be fairly heard; where a prudent judge is going to ignore the bullshit and obfuscation typical of the creationism proponents. I think that is a fairly wise approach since it appears to be effective at keeping the BS out of the science classes without having to slug it out with the nuts grocery store tabloid style.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[NCclimber 0]

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>the 'no tolerance (no intelligence)' shtick is firmly in the liberal camp.
Hmm. Which side is trying to ban the teaching of evolution again?

I think his point is about who is actually setting policy inside our schools.

First graders getting charged w/ sexual harassment for kissing a girl, an elementary school student is prohibited from reading a story she wrote because it's about her faith.

Here are a few stories I found.
http://www.neveryetmelted.com/?p=2813
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2007/06/no-touching-allowed.html

This one seemed truly inane.

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A high school student loans a friend, another high school student, his copy of The God Delusion. Two things happen: the friend's father loses his cool and complains to their school, and a school administrator suggests that this was an establishment clause violation.

[billvon 3,107]

> The battle is dominated by religious fundamentalists on one side and
> scientists on the other.

I think that's largely true, and that republicans/democrats then "pick sides" after the fact. The Discovery Institute is primarily religious in orientation, but many republicans support their goals.

>They pretty much feel it is ridiculous for dignified bonafide researchers
>to have to go tit-for-tat toe-to-toe with the lunatic fringe that makes up
>the fundamentalist crowd.

Yep, and thus the FSM.

[pirana 0]

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Yep, and thus the FSM.

And exactly what are you saying about the FSM?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[billvon 3,107]

>And exactly what are you saying about the FSM?

Nothing! I fully support people's right to believe in whatever god they want to!

(The FSM, as you probably know, was a satirical religion created by a physicist to point out the folly of trying to allow 'equal time' to every religious idea in science classrooms.)

[Royd 0]

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The following is not a sexist statement; it is a matter of historical and scientific fact: Schools, as we now know them, were designed by women to accommodate the temperament and learning style of girls. Sitting still and absorbing information comes naturally for most girls.

Over that last few years we have seen the feminization of America. Let's face it. A lot of women do not like boys being boys.
The kids can no longer play games that require aggressivness or a high amount of activity for fear of someone getting hurt.
Forget dodge ball or red rover. Forget anything that requires someone to be out or it.
I wonder what playground equipment is no longer allowed on the playground.

Shortyj, good for you wanting your boys to be boys. Take them outside and throw some dirt on them.

[willard 0]

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Thank you for the clarity, professor.

Just the facts, Ma'am.

Blaming a teacher for zero tolerance policies is like blaming a corporal for the quagmire in Iraq.

If you have information that shows this was because of a no tolerance policy please share such info with us. Could be the teacher was acting on his/her own.

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[NCclimber 0]

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The following is not a sexist statement; it is a matter of historical and scientific fact: Schools, as we now know them, were designed by women to accommodate the temperament and learning style of girls. Sitting still and absorbing information comes naturally for most girls.

Over that last few years we have seen the feminization of America. Let's face it. A lot of women do not like boys being boys.
The kids can no longer play games that require aggressivness or a high amount of activity for fear of someone getting hurt.
Forget dodge ball or red rover. Forget anything that requires someone to be out or it.
I wonder what playground equipment is no longer allowed on the playground.

Shortyj, good for you wanting your boys to be boys. Take them outside and throw some dirt on them.

And don't forget about nurturing self esteem.

[Douva 0]

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I'm betting it was a Republican teacher.

I'm betting you'd be wrong - the 'no tolerance (no intelligence)' shtick is firmly in the liberal camp.

So predominantly left wingers support zero-tolerance approaches with young people, but predominantly right wingers upport capital punishment and harsher sentances for adult people.

Kinda wierd huh?

DING! DING! DING! Congratulations! You've just figured it out!

Both sides want more restrictions and more government involvement; however, both sides want it from their point of view.

If, rather than drawing a picture of a man with a gun, he'd written a story about a gay couple, the mouths on the right side of the aisle would be supporting the teacher for stopping him, and the mouths on the left side of the aisle would be decrying the teacher for stopping him.

Basically, both sides want the government to force everyone to come into line with their point of view.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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The following is not a sexist statement; it is a matter of historical and scientific fact: Schools, as we now know them, were designed by women to accommodate the temperament and learning style of girls. Sitting still and absorbing information comes naturally for most girls.

Over that last few years we have seen the feminization of America. Let's face it. A lot of women do not like boys being boys.
The kids can no longer play games that require aggressivness or a high amount of activity for fear of someone getting hurt.
Forget dodge ball or red rover. Forget anything that requires someone to be out or it.
I wonder what playground equipment is no longer allowed on the playground.

Shortyj, good for you wanting your boys to be boys. Take them outside and throw some dirt on them.

And don't forget about nurturing self esteem.

It's all about balance. There's nothing wrong with encouraging fair play and mutual support, all the while allowing competition accompanied by a reasonable amount of risk.

It's a domino effect. We're afraid for our kids, their schools are afraid of being sued by us if something happens to our kids, and our kids are just trying to figure out why nobody will let them be kids.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[NCclimber 0]

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Both sides want more restrictions and more government involvement; however, both sides want it from their point of view.

If, rather than drawing a picture of a man with a gun, he'd written a story about a gay couple, the mouths on the right side of the aisle would be supporting the teacher for stopping him, and the mouths on the left side of the aisle would be decrying the teacher for stopping him.

Basically, both sides want the government to force everyone to come into line with their point of view.

I think you're missing the point - that many people think school systems go way too far about disciplining children for really stupid stuff.

On the flip side of the control issue, it seems that many school systems treat students who consistently cause problems and disrupt classrooms with kid gloves. My wife used to teach. I recall a story about a fifth grader who regularly got in fights... I'm talking about blood and stitches. He'd get sent home for 3 days, come back and start the same trouble all over. According to school policy, the teacher was stuck with him for the whole year. It didn't matter that he made life miserable for everyone else.

[shortyj 0]

Yes I want my boys to boys. When they ask can we play in the rain I say yes. (as long as it isn't lighting) And when they want to do wheelies on there bike I let them. Or climb really high in a tree. I just tell them to be careful. One time they were in a tree really high and I couldn't see them so I yelled to them I laugh at what my oldest said " mom we're up here we're still alive. O.k. good and I went back inside.

Playtime is essential.

[rehmwa 2]

careful, the social workers might be reading this thread

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,146]

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Yes I want my boys to boys. When they ask can we play in the rain I say yes. (as long as it isn't lighting) And when they want to do wheelies on there bike I let them. Or climb really high in a tree. I just tell them to be careful. One time they were in a tree really high and I couldn't see them so I yelled to them I laugh at what my oldest said " mom we're up here we're still alive. O.k. good and I went back inside.

I wanna play cricket on the green
Ride my bike across the stream
Cut myself and see my blood
Wanna come home all covered in mud

I'm a boy, I'm a boy, but my school won't admit it
I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy
I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy
I'm a boy - I'm a boy - I'm a boy

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Remster 30]

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The FSM, as you probably know, was a satirical religion

Woooooooo! Who are you calling satanical????

Remster

[billvon 3,107]

>(as long as it isn't lighting)

WHAT? Kids like lightning! It's the nanny state that is trying to turn strong virile boys into sissy thunder-fearing girls, I tell ya . . .

[Squeak 17]

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Teacher speaking......I teach second/third grade so I had to speak my mind on this one As long as it's not obsene or offensive than they have the right to express themselves.

Also a Teacher here, in first grade obscene and offensive, are generally not in the kids vocab, or on their cognitive radar.
Let them draw what ever tehy want then sit and talk WITH them about it

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Zenister 0]

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I never would have made it through school under the "zero tolerance" policies of today.

you and me both.. all throughout grade and highschool everyone of my school books had 'paperbag covers' COVERED in Frazetta drawings i'd copied.

Even the art teacher and I went around and around about my 'subject matter' but she couldnt do more than express her distaste in one grading category... as my technique in oil and water (from years of mimicking frazetta and boris) surpassed her own (she didnt want to let me into her advanced painting classes as a junior (coming from europe) who hadnt taken her prerequisite 'basics' (she actually had the gall to tell another teacher that there was no way I could have painted most of my portfolio)

attire? long hair, camo/leather jacket or trench coat? lol.. yea that would fly post columbine.

Actually got sent to the office by a teacher who didnt like some of the slogans and unit patches on the back of my fathers fatigue top. Fortunately the Principle was also a vet and took care of it.... I wouldnt have come back if they told me I couldnt wear it.. that particular patch was my fathers unit in Vietnam with the tour tabs around it.

History report? guaranteed it was a battle summary of tactics and options used...

Creative writing? Exposition on the intruder my mother shot? HP Lovecraft inspired horror tales?? Sci-fi based murder mysteries? yea right..

Hell I probably wouldnt be allowed to bring my 'weapons' (fencing) to a modern high school.. and I introduced more than 300 highschool students to the sport (they enrolled in our salle) through practical demos during PE...

strangely enough all those behaviors and attitudes developed in DoD schools in Europe and were never a problem until we returned to 'the land of the free' and a school system ranked in the last 5 for the US.

It shocks me now talking to fresh military recruits who cant name any of the major battles from any war the US has ever participated in... I guess they dont teach those at all anymore... We used to take field trips to see them...

if/when I have kids there is zero chance they will be educated at any public institution.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Royd 0]

Also a Teacher here, in first grade obscene and offensive, are generally not in the kids vocab, or on their cognitive radar.

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Let them draw what ever tehy want then sit and talk WITH them about it

As long as, in the process, you don't try to lay a societal guilt trip on them; i.e. brainwashing.