Saluting Flag While Not in Uniform to Be Authorized (StratPage)

[Guest]

Making It Safe For Civilians to Salute

August 19, 2007: The U.S. Congress just passed a law (S.1877) [on 25 July - mh] allowing military veterans to render a military salute to the flag while not in uniform. In the past, it has been customary for only military personnel in uniform to use the military salute when recognizing the flag. Civilians, and military personnel (including veterans) used the civilian "salute" of placing one's hand over one's heart. But this custom had never been recognized by law, and many veterans would render a military salute to the flag. This wasn't illegal, but it wasn't quite legal, either. Not a big deal for most, but for many veterans, and active duty military personnel wearing civilian clothes, it is a big deal. Flags were originally invented mainly as military symbols, an early form of battlefield communication. It still sometimes serves that purpose. It's still something soldiers die for, or even under. Always being able to render the military salute to the flag thus means something for those who have served to defend it with their lives.

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According to Govtrack, this bill passed by "Unanimous Consent", so no vote records were kept (and no debate took place, either, apparently). Next stop, the House.

"I'm just a Bill, yes I'm only a Bill...."

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Gawain 0]

I don't know why Congress needs to make a law about it. The military could simply update the regulations for active duty personnel.

So, Congress has managed to name a few post-offices and the only way to increase the minimum wage was to support funding for the war. Other than that, they're trying really hard to sidestep all sorts of issues aren't they?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Nightingale 0]

Seems to me that people who have served have earned the right to salute the flag any way they want to.

[jakee 1,594]

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But this custom had never been recognized by law, and many veterans would render a military salute to the flag. This wasn't illegal, but it wasn't quite legal, either.

What do they mean, "wasn't quite legal"?

What could possibly be illegal about making any sort of gesture towards a flag?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,146]

Seems to me that the First Amendment allows anyone to salute the flag, or moon it. What a silly law.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnnyD 0]

I can't believe we actually pay these people to waste our time with this crap. The next time I see someone get dragged away by the police for saluting the flag will be the first time.

[nopurpose 0]

If you haven't served, you probably wouldn't understand. Although as an American you probably should.

[billvon 3,107]

We can't get a workable plan to deal with Iraq out of Congress, but they have time to debate whether to make something legal that isn't currently illegal.

>Always being able to render the military salute to the flag thus
>means something for those who have served to defend it with their lives.

How about coming up with a strategy for Iraq so that they don't have to die in the first place? Or, barring that, a plan that ensures that their deaths actually help defend the US instead of making it less safe? Perhaps that should take precedence over who salutes which flag with what hand over which body part.

[livendive 8]

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If you haven't served, you probably wouldn't understand. Although as an American you probably should.

What he said. I occasionally checked in on the efforts by veteran's groups to get permission to render a proper salute. It isn't nearly as big a deal to me as it was to them, but I still think it's nice. Still, I rarely wear hats and I remove them when appropriate, and an uncovered salute would feel odd.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 2,146]

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If you haven't served, you probably wouldn't understand. Although as an American you probably should.

What he said. I occasionally checked in on the efforts by veteran's groups to get permission to render a proper salute. It isn't nearly as big a deal to me as it was to them, but I still think it's nice. Still, I rarely wear hats and I remove them when appropriate, and an uncovered salute would feel odd.

Blues,
Dave

I would think that taking an oath to uphold the Constitution would involve knowing what the First Amendment means.

Societies where an action is illegal unless explicity deemed to be legal are generally totalitarian dictatorships.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,594]

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What he said. I occasionally checked in on the efforts by veteran's groups to get permission to render a proper salute.

"Permission"?

How could it possibly have been forbidden in the first place?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[livendive 8]

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If you haven't served, you probably wouldn't understand. Although as an American you probably should.

What he said. I occasionally checked in on the efforts by veteran's groups to get permission to render a proper salute. It isn't nearly as big a deal to me as it was to them, but I still think it's nice. Still, I rarely wear hats and I remove them when appropriate, and an uncovered salute would feel odd.

Blues,
Dave

I would think that taking an oath to uphold the Constitution would involve knowing what the First Amendment means.

Societies where an action is illegal unless explicity deemed to be legal are generally totalitarian dictatorships.

"Illegal" was a poor choice of words. Letting a flag touch the ground isn't "illegal", but you'll still see many veterans offended by it. Color related conventions are generally regarded as compulsory by veterans, and formal permission to salute while not in uniform distinguishes those who have signed on the dotted line and offered up their lives in service to the concepts for which our standard flies.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 2,146]

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If you haven't served, you probably wouldn't understand. Although as an American you probably should.

What he said. I occasionally checked in on the efforts by veteran's groups to get permission to render a proper salute. It isn't nearly as big a deal to me as it was to them, but I still think it's nice. Still, I rarely wear hats and I remove them when appropriate, and an uncovered salute would feel odd.

Blues,
Dave

I would think that taking an oath to uphold the Constitution would involve knowing what the First Amendment means.

Societies where an action is illegal unless explicity deemed to be legal are generally totalitarian dictatorships.

"Illegal" was a poor choice of words. Letting a flag touch the ground isn't "illegal", but you'll still see many veterans offended by it. Color related conventions are generally regarded as compulsory by veterans, and formal permission to salute while not in uniform distinguishes those who have signed on the dotted line and offered up their lives in service to the concepts for which our standard flies.

Blues,
Dave

You do not have the right not to be offended.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnnyD 0]

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If you haven't served, you probably wouldn't understand. Although as an American you probably should.

Cpl, USMC
Not that it matters.
So not only has my ass been in the crack, but I also get my paltry paycheck squeezed to pay for these stuffed shirts to waste my resources on totally irrelevant issues. They must have run out of issues on which to pass non-binding resolutions.

[livendive 8]

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If you haven't served, you probably wouldn't understand. Although as an American you probably should.

What he said. I occasionally checked in on the efforts by veteran's groups to get permission to render a proper salute. It isn't nearly as big a deal to me as it was to them, but I still think it's nice. Still, I rarely wear hats and I remove them when appropriate, and an uncovered salute would feel odd.

Blues,
Dave

I would think that taking an oath to uphold the Constitution would involve knowing what the First Amendment means.

Societies where an action is illegal unless explicity deemed to be legal are generally totalitarian dictatorships.

"Illegal" was a poor choice of words. Letting a flag touch the ground isn't "illegal", but you'll still see many veterans offended by it. Color related conventions are generally regarded as compulsory by veterans, and formal permission to salute while not in uniform distinguishes those who have signed on the dotted line and offered up their lives in service to the concepts for which our standard flies.

You do not have the right not to be offended.

Where did I say I had any such right? The fact that tact and decorum aren't legally conferred rights of veterans doesn't lessen their importance in a polite society. You are completely free to think that the kid flipping burgers at your local McD's has earned just as much respect as your son. Some of us think your son has earned a bit more. If that kid at McD's wants to pretend he's walked the same path, I doubt he'll be arrested for saluting during the anthem at a Cubs game.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 2,146]

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If you haven't served, you probably wouldn't understand. Although as an American you probably should.

What he said. I occasionally checked in on the efforts by veteran's groups to get permission to render a proper salute. It isn't nearly as big a deal to me as it was to them, but I still think it's nice. Still, I rarely wear hats and I remove them when appropriate, and an uncovered salute would feel odd.

Blues,
Dave

I would think that taking an oath to uphold the Constitution would involve knowing what the First Amendment means.

Societies where an action is illegal unless explicity deemed to be legal are generally totalitarian dictatorships.

"Illegal" was a poor choice of words. Letting a flag touch the ground isn't "illegal", but you'll still see many veterans offended by it. Color related conventions are generally regarded as compulsory by veterans, and formal permission to salute while not in uniform distinguishes those who have signed on the dotted line and offered up their lives in service to the concepts for which our standard flies.

You do not have the right not to be offended.

Where did I say I had any such right? The fact that tact and decorum aren't legally conferred rights of veterans doesn't lessen their importance in a polite society. You are completely free to think that the kid flipping burgers at your local McD's has earned just as much respect as your son. Some of us think your son has earned a bit more. If that kid at McD's wants to pretend he's walked the same path, I doubt he'll be arrested for saluting during the anthem at a Cubs game.

Blues,
Dave

What I think about respect due various individuals has nothing whatever to do with the asinine law described in the OP and the rights enjoyed by members of our free society.

(And I fail to see how a McD's burger flipper is disrepecting anyone if he chooses to salute the flag. Surely it's preferable to burning it, which is still legal).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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What I think about respect due various individuals has nothing whatever to do with the asinine law described in the OP and the rights enjoyed by members of our free society.

(And I fail to see how a McD's burger flipper is disrepecting anyone if he chooses to salute the flag. Surely it's preferable to burning it, which is still legal).

If a proper salute is a convention set aside for service members, past and present, a polite person would leave it to them. Portraying one's self as such a person without having done the time is disrespectful to the service members and the sacrifices they've made. Still, being disrespectful isn't illegal, and I agree with you that it's preferable to burning a flag.

I have no problem with Congress tipping a hat to veterans. While they could certainly spend their time doing something more important, a bit of deference is more appreciated than the normal routine of lying to their constituency and lining their pockets.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 2,146]

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I have no problem with Congress tipping a hat to veterans. While they could certainly spend their time doing something more important, a bit of deference is more appreciated than the normal routine of lying to their constituency and lining their pockets.

Blues,
Dave

We get the government we deserve.

We do not live in a particularly polite society. I see its products (18 year old college students) on a daily basis.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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I have no problem with Congress tipping a hat to veterans. While they could certainly spend their time doing something more important, a bit of deference is more appreciated than the normal routine of lying to their constituency and lining their pockets.

Blues,
Dave

We get the government we deserve.

Agreed, and your sentiment is particularly apropos of this legislation.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rehmwa 2]

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waste my resources on totally irrelevant issues.

Don't feel bad

I'm sure it wasn't a complete waste - I'm sure there was some sort of enviromental kissup, big business bribe, self pay raise, perverted arts support, or something of the sort tacked on that needed stealth funding.

Mmmmm, congressional pork and whine

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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a bit of deference is more appreciated than the normal routine of lying to their constituency and lining their pockets.

and even more likely they did all three at the same time here?...

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shropshire 0]

You can respect your country (or anything really) without being seen to be doing it.. But if folks want to salute, let them.

When I was in the military, it didn't mean I respected anything when I saluted an officier... I just had to do it... it became 2nd nature, nothing more.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[JohnnyD 0]

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I have no problem with Congress tipping a hat to veterans. While they could certainly spend their time doing something more important, a bit of deference is more appreciated than the normal routine of lying to their constituency and lining their pockets.

Blues,
Dave

So congress has actually made you happy about them doing nothing, because normally, what they would be doing is bad?

[NCclimber 0]

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I have no problem with Congress tipping a hat to veterans.

Which is basically all this is about... a simple piece of legislation that seemingly breezed through the process. I doubt there's been a single session of Congress (at least in the last 100 years) that didn't have similar bills. And I doubt any of those bills got in the way of Congress addressing major issues.

You got to wonder why some people seem upset about it.

[livendive 8]

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So congress has actually made you happy about them doing nothing, because normally, what they would be doing is bad?

Pretty much. It's the same reason that in the last Presidential election, I hoped that regardless of who won the Presidency, the opposing party won control of Congress.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)