Bill_K 0 #1 September 25, 2006 They really do mean it, EVEN in a cross wind landing. Take these pictures as a warning and example of what happens when you reach while still at 8 or 9 feet and get dumped and drug... thankfully nothing by a few bruises and scrapes to show for this. Anyway, just a good reminder to pay attention to the basics... Oh and I was doing my first free fly jump and was only wearing shorts. My jump suit would have saved the scrapes, but not the bruises. I had started my flare while about 30 degree's into a cross wind and instead of just keeping going through and down, I reached with my right. The wind was coming from the left front. Next thing I know, wam and drag... Several that saw it though did say that it was pretty funny to watch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mik 2 #2 September 25, 2006 Freeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! Glad you are ok... *********************************************** I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #3 September 25, 2006 QuoteFreeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! It was more of a first FreeFlying attempt... But hey I did try, and will again. I did pull off a free tumble with a nice spin from on back while trying to get stable for a few thousand feet, hit 171 mph at some point. After a few rotations without being able to get back up into a sit I rolled to my belly without even thinking about it. I mean, one second I'm on my back and the next I was stable on my belly. Amazing how much some of that AFF training comes back and kicks in. QuoteGlad you are ok... Thanks!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #4 September 25, 2006 QuoteFreeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! Glad you are ok... dude I started at 21 jumps Dhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brabzzz 0 #5 September 25, 2006 The sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! Yep - a jumpsuit would have saved you some grief. I stopped jumping tevas after it occured to me that good trainers were cushioning the landings SOOOOO much more. Could have been worse though...naked jump! --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 235 #6 September 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteFreeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! Glad you are ok... dude I started at 21 jumps D Haa!! My log book entry for jump #12: "Tried sitting thing.""I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #7 September 25, 2006 What I did not say in the first post is that this 'free fly' attempt was on jump #39 and that I did 5 of those belly things afterward through out the day... It did not hurt to walk on so I figured that I was probably safe to go for it. I stopped the sit flying attempts so that I could use my jump suite to protect the leg from anymore rash though. Now I gotta go read more about this free flying thing... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 14 #8 September 26, 2006 Quote My jump suit would have saved the scrapes, Dude, with your vast experience, you don't need to jump in anything more than a jockstrap and flipflops. Don't weenie out now. Hang in there, you'll toughen up. Hell, what are you going to do when you're hooking in swoops with that new Velo in another 10 - 12 jumps. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #9 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuote My jump suit would have saved the scrapes, Dude, with your vast experience, you don't need to jump in anything more than a jockstrap and flipflops. Don't weenie out now. Hang in there, you'll toughen up. Hell, what are you going to do when you're hooking in swoops with that new Velo in another 10 - 12 jumps. Kevin K. Kevin, I don't know you from Adam, but that made me laugh like hell dude... thanks for the smile!! What is the saying about experience, it comes from bad choices and those from lack of experience... oh heck I don't remember... thanks again for the laugh... no jock's here though. The Doke's of the world can have those. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #10 September 26, 2006 Glad to see the pictures aren't radiographical. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #11 September 26, 2006 Quotedude I started at 21 jumps QuoteThe sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! QuoteHaa!! My log book entry for jump #12: "Tried sitting thing." Quote'free fly' attempt was on jump #39 Quote"good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment" I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #12 September 26, 2006 Try to fill up your bag of experience before your bag of luck get empty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #13 September 26, 2006 Quote I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? I don't get it. Most DZ's have basic freeflying as part of their student progression...? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brabzzz 0 #14 September 26, 2006 Not in the UK. Still can't see what the problem is with someone trying freeflying at 20 jumps. As long as they're going solo with good kit, who cares if they decide to do some flailing rather than belly flying? --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #15 September 26, 2006 A quick reply to the free flying. First I bought a brand new Mirage M3 recently so that I would have a free fly friendly rig. I also liked the saftey and idea of having a newer rig so I bought one. Second I got 30 minutes of coaching on the ground before I got on the plane and the coach jumped after I did and stayed clear of me and gave me more coaching when we got on the ground. Lastly, I don't have a free flying suit, just an RW suit so for me to try free flying it's shorts and a baggy sweat shirt for now. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,594 #16 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuote"good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment" I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? Really? I don't really see how the solo sit flying contributed to the accident, but what I do see is a suitably loaded, docile 7-cell canopy choice that may well have prevented this from being any worse. Hey Bill, man does that look like its going to sting! Glad you're okDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #17 September 26, 2006 >When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #18 September 26, 2006 Quotebut what I do see is a suitably loaded, docile 7-cell canopy choice that may well have prevented this from being any worse. I'm sure that your very right. QuoteHey Bill, man does that look like its going to sting! Glad you're ok Thanks me too... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #19 September 26, 2006 Quote>When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. Bill, Can you point me to an online description of this so that I can start practicing it up good and high? In this case it probably would have saved some skin on my leg. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #20 September 26, 2006 >Can you point me to an online description of this so that I can start practicing it up good and high? Here's an excerpt: ------------- Learn to flare turn at least 45 degrees. This does two things - it gives you another tool in your arsenal to dodge last minute obstacles, and teaches you to fly your canopy all the way through to the landing. The #1 mistake jumpers with new HP canopies make is to "reach out to break their fall" while they're flaring; this of course turns the canopy in the direction they are reaching. Most people decide that this is due to a side gust just as they're landing. I remember one jumper at Brown who, amazingly enough, experienced a side gust seconds before he landed (and always from the right) 40-50 times in a row! Learning to flare turn will help eliminate this problem. To flare turn, start with a normal flare, then flare _slightly_ more with one toggle. The canopy will turn. Bring the other toggle down to match it, and the canopy will straighten out. It's a dynamic process; rather than put the toggles at a certain position, you have to speed up one toggle for a second, then speed up the other to match it, before you level them and finish the flare. If you balloon upwards, then don't flare as quickly. If you drop to the ground, bring both toggles down more aggressively when they are 'split.' One thing that helps people is to think about where your canopy is rather than what it's doing. Use the toggles to put it off to one side for a moment, then use them to put it back over your head. This can be hard to practice with a large canopy. I can pull off a 45 degree turn on a Manta, but the flare is over so fast that it's hard to explain what I just did. It's much easier on a canopy loaded around 1:1, so you may want to wait on this one until you get to that loading. Note that if you combine a flare turn with a flat turn, you can pull off nearly a 180 degree turn at just above 50 feet. Also note that knowing how to do flat and flare turns doesn't mean you can always turn at 50 feet and get away with it - sometimes it's better to accept a downwind landing than make a turn at a dangerously low altitude. But if you do have to turn low (say, you're on course for the electrified fence around the pit bull farm) a flat/flare turn will let you either turn and land normally or turn and minimize the damage caused by landing in a turn. ------------------------------------------------- Whole article: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #21 September 26, 2006 Thanks for the link Bill. I'm going to read, and re-read it a few times. In this case I do know that it was a cross wind because I was turning away from a taxi way to avoid hitting it. I had missed my spot a little due to the winds being stronger on downwind than I had anticipated. I know your not saying that I always reach, and in thinking back, I was trying to be careful to avoid that taxi way (for a really dumb reason which I should not share ) and made a choice to turn and put myself cross wind a bit. The winds were steady at probably 10-12 knots, maybe a tad more, it's hard to say. Anyway, thanks as usual!! Your always a help.BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #22 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteFreeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! Glad you are ok... dude I started at 21 jumps One...make that two shots of one of my former AFF students while she was learning the art of backloops. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites parachutist 2 #23 September 27, 2006 Quote>When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. "Toggles together" is a good habit, not a crutch. A couple benefits: 1) if you need to PLF then your arms are in close and less likely to get broken. 2) When a low-timer is being distracted by the approaching earth at 10 feet... the hands stay together and the flare is even (instead of reaching for the ground and breaking a wrist) Jumpers can take this good habit and still learn to do braked turns when they're ready Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #24 September 27, 2006 >"Toggles together" is a good habit, not a crutch. "Toggles together" is like "eyes on the horizon", "two stage flare" or "feet and knees together at 20 feet." It's a great thing to do when you're starting out, and can really save your butt in some situations. But it's also something you have to outgrow before you move on to higher wingloadings/more aggressive canopies. Keeping your toggles together means you cannot use them to correct your flare once you've started. At higher loadings, that can result in injuries due to failure to maintain heading during the flare (or being unable to change one's heading during the flare.) This doesn't mean that "toggles together" is worthless - rather, it means that if someone is trying to decide whether to get a more aggressive canopy, and they're still doing the "toggles together" thing, they'd be well-advised to make a few more jumps on that canopy before they downsize. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Brumby 0 #25 September 27, 2006 QuoteThe sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! I like you statement............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
dharma1976 0 #4 September 25, 2006 QuoteFreeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! Glad you are ok... dude I started at 21 jumps Dhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brabzzz 0 #5 September 25, 2006 The sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! Yep - a jumpsuit would have saved you some grief. I stopped jumping tevas after it occured to me that good trainers were cushioning the landings SOOOOO much more. Could have been worse though...naked jump! --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #6 September 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteFreeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! Glad you are ok... dude I started at 21 jumps D Haa!! My log book entry for jump #12: "Tried sitting thing.""I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #7 September 25, 2006 What I did not say in the first post is that this 'free fly' attempt was on jump #39 and that I did 5 of those belly things afterward through out the day... It did not hurt to walk on so I figured that I was probably safe to go for it. I stopped the sit flying attempts so that I could use my jump suite to protect the leg from anymore rash though. Now I gotta go read more about this free flying thing... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 14 #8 September 26, 2006 Quote My jump suit would have saved the scrapes, Dude, with your vast experience, you don't need to jump in anything more than a jockstrap and flipflops. Don't weenie out now. Hang in there, you'll toughen up. Hell, what are you going to do when you're hooking in swoops with that new Velo in another 10 - 12 jumps. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #9 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuote My jump suit would have saved the scrapes, Dude, with your vast experience, you don't need to jump in anything more than a jockstrap and flipflops. Don't weenie out now. Hang in there, you'll toughen up. Hell, what are you going to do when you're hooking in swoops with that new Velo in another 10 - 12 jumps. Kevin K. Kevin, I don't know you from Adam, but that made me laugh like hell dude... thanks for the smile!! What is the saying about experience, it comes from bad choices and those from lack of experience... oh heck I don't remember... thanks again for the laugh... no jock's here though. The Doke's of the world can have those. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #10 September 26, 2006 Glad to see the pictures aren't radiographical. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #11 September 26, 2006 Quotedude I started at 21 jumps QuoteThe sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! QuoteHaa!! My log book entry for jump #12: "Tried sitting thing." Quote'free fly' attempt was on jump #39 Quote"good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment" I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #12 September 26, 2006 Try to fill up your bag of experience before your bag of luck get empty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #13 September 26, 2006 Quote I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? I don't get it. Most DZ's have basic freeflying as part of their student progression...? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brabzzz 0 #14 September 26, 2006 Not in the UK. Still can't see what the problem is with someone trying freeflying at 20 jumps. As long as they're going solo with good kit, who cares if they decide to do some flailing rather than belly flying? --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #15 September 26, 2006 A quick reply to the free flying. First I bought a brand new Mirage M3 recently so that I would have a free fly friendly rig. I also liked the saftey and idea of having a newer rig so I bought one. Second I got 30 minutes of coaching on the ground before I got on the plane and the coach jumped after I did and stayed clear of me and gave me more coaching when we got on the ground. Lastly, I don't have a free flying suit, just an RW suit so for me to try free flying it's shorts and a baggy sweat shirt for now. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,594 #16 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuote"good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment" I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? Really? I don't really see how the solo sit flying contributed to the accident, but what I do see is a suitably loaded, docile 7-cell canopy choice that may well have prevented this from being any worse. Hey Bill, man does that look like its going to sting! Glad you're okDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #17 September 26, 2006 >When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #18 September 26, 2006 Quotebut what I do see is a suitably loaded, docile 7-cell canopy choice that may well have prevented this from being any worse. I'm sure that your very right. QuoteHey Bill, man does that look like its going to sting! Glad you're ok Thanks me too... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #19 September 26, 2006 Quote>When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. Bill, Can you point me to an online description of this so that I can start practicing it up good and high? In this case it probably would have saved some skin on my leg. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #20 September 26, 2006 >Can you point me to an online description of this so that I can start practicing it up good and high? Here's an excerpt: ------------- Learn to flare turn at least 45 degrees. This does two things - it gives you another tool in your arsenal to dodge last minute obstacles, and teaches you to fly your canopy all the way through to the landing. The #1 mistake jumpers with new HP canopies make is to "reach out to break their fall" while they're flaring; this of course turns the canopy in the direction they are reaching. Most people decide that this is due to a side gust just as they're landing. I remember one jumper at Brown who, amazingly enough, experienced a side gust seconds before he landed (and always from the right) 40-50 times in a row! Learning to flare turn will help eliminate this problem. To flare turn, start with a normal flare, then flare _slightly_ more with one toggle. The canopy will turn. Bring the other toggle down to match it, and the canopy will straighten out. It's a dynamic process; rather than put the toggles at a certain position, you have to speed up one toggle for a second, then speed up the other to match it, before you level them and finish the flare. If you balloon upwards, then don't flare as quickly. If you drop to the ground, bring both toggles down more aggressively when they are 'split.' One thing that helps people is to think about where your canopy is rather than what it's doing. Use the toggles to put it off to one side for a moment, then use them to put it back over your head. This can be hard to practice with a large canopy. I can pull off a 45 degree turn on a Manta, but the flare is over so fast that it's hard to explain what I just did. It's much easier on a canopy loaded around 1:1, so you may want to wait on this one until you get to that loading. Note that if you combine a flare turn with a flat turn, you can pull off nearly a 180 degree turn at just above 50 feet. Also note that knowing how to do flat and flare turns doesn't mean you can always turn at 50 feet and get away with it - sometimes it's better to accept a downwind landing than make a turn at a dangerously low altitude. But if you do have to turn low (say, you're on course for the electrified fence around the pit bull farm) a flat/flare turn will let you either turn and land normally or turn and minimize the damage caused by landing in a turn. ------------------------------------------------- Whole article: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #21 September 26, 2006 Thanks for the link Bill. I'm going to read, and re-read it a few times. In this case I do know that it was a cross wind because I was turning away from a taxi way to avoid hitting it. I had missed my spot a little due to the winds being stronger on downwind than I had anticipated. I know your not saying that I always reach, and in thinking back, I was trying to be careful to avoid that taxi way (for a really dumb reason which I should not share ) and made a choice to turn and put myself cross wind a bit. The winds were steady at probably 10-12 knots, maybe a tad more, it's hard to say. Anyway, thanks as usual!! Your always a help.BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #22 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteFreeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! Glad you are ok... dude I started at 21 jumps One...make that two shots of one of my former AFF students while she was learning the art of backloops. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites parachutist 2 #23 September 27, 2006 Quote>When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. "Toggles together" is a good habit, not a crutch. A couple benefits: 1) if you need to PLF then your arms are in close and less likely to get broken. 2) When a low-timer is being distracted by the approaching earth at 10 feet... the hands stay together and the flare is even (instead of reaching for the ground and breaking a wrist) Jumpers can take this good habit and still learn to do braked turns when they're ready Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #24 September 27, 2006 >"Toggles together" is a good habit, not a crutch. "Toggles together" is like "eyes on the horizon", "two stage flare" or "feet and knees together at 20 feet." It's a great thing to do when you're starting out, and can really save your butt in some situations. But it's also something you have to outgrow before you move on to higher wingloadings/more aggressive canopies. Keeping your toggles together means you cannot use them to correct your flare once you've started. At higher loadings, that can result in injuries due to failure to maintain heading during the flare (or being unable to change one's heading during the flare.) This doesn't mean that "toggles together" is worthless - rather, it means that if someone is trying to decide whether to get a more aggressive canopy, and they're still doing the "toggles together" thing, they'd be well-advised to make a few more jumps on that canopy before they downsize. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Brumby 0 #25 September 27, 2006 QuoteThe sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! I like you statement............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
kkeenan 14 #8 September 26, 2006 Quote My jump suit would have saved the scrapes, Dude, with your vast experience, you don't need to jump in anything more than a jockstrap and flipflops. Don't weenie out now. Hang in there, you'll toughen up. Hell, what are you going to do when you're hooking in swoops with that new Velo in another 10 - 12 jumps. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #9 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuote My jump suit would have saved the scrapes, Dude, with your vast experience, you don't need to jump in anything more than a jockstrap and flipflops. Don't weenie out now. Hang in there, you'll toughen up. Hell, what are you going to do when you're hooking in swoops with that new Velo in another 10 - 12 jumps. Kevin K. Kevin, I don't know you from Adam, but that made me laugh like hell dude... thanks for the smile!! What is the saying about experience, it comes from bad choices and those from lack of experience... oh heck I don't remember... thanks again for the laugh... no jock's here though. The Doke's of the world can have those. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #10 September 26, 2006 Glad to see the pictures aren't radiographical. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #11 September 26, 2006 Quotedude I started at 21 jumps QuoteThe sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! QuoteHaa!! My log book entry for jump #12: "Tried sitting thing." Quote'free fly' attempt was on jump #39 Quote"good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment" I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #12 September 26, 2006 Try to fill up your bag of experience before your bag of luck get empty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #13 September 26, 2006 Quote I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? I don't get it. Most DZ's have basic freeflying as part of their student progression...? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brabzzz 0 #14 September 26, 2006 Not in the UK. Still can't see what the problem is with someone trying freeflying at 20 jumps. As long as they're going solo with good kit, who cares if they decide to do some flailing rather than belly flying? --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #15 September 26, 2006 A quick reply to the free flying. First I bought a brand new Mirage M3 recently so that I would have a free fly friendly rig. I also liked the saftey and idea of having a newer rig so I bought one. Second I got 30 minutes of coaching on the ground before I got on the plane and the coach jumped after I did and stayed clear of me and gave me more coaching when we got on the ground. Lastly, I don't have a free flying suit, just an RW suit so for me to try free flying it's shorts and a baggy sweat shirt for now. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #16 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuote"good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment" I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good? Really? I don't really see how the solo sit flying contributed to the accident, but what I do see is a suitably loaded, docile 7-cell canopy choice that may well have prevented this from being any worse. Hey Bill, man does that look like its going to sting! Glad you're okDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #17 September 26, 2006 >When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #18 September 26, 2006 Quotebut what I do see is a suitably loaded, docile 7-cell canopy choice that may well have prevented this from being any worse. I'm sure that your very right. QuoteHey Bill, man does that look like its going to sting! Glad you're ok Thanks me too... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #19 September 26, 2006 Quote>When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. Bill, Can you point me to an online description of this so that I can start practicing it up good and high? In this case it probably would have saved some skin on my leg. BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #20 September 26, 2006 >Can you point me to an online description of this so that I can start practicing it up good and high? Here's an excerpt: ------------- Learn to flare turn at least 45 degrees. This does two things - it gives you another tool in your arsenal to dodge last minute obstacles, and teaches you to fly your canopy all the way through to the landing. The #1 mistake jumpers with new HP canopies make is to "reach out to break their fall" while they're flaring; this of course turns the canopy in the direction they are reaching. Most people decide that this is due to a side gust just as they're landing. I remember one jumper at Brown who, amazingly enough, experienced a side gust seconds before he landed (and always from the right) 40-50 times in a row! Learning to flare turn will help eliminate this problem. To flare turn, start with a normal flare, then flare _slightly_ more with one toggle. The canopy will turn. Bring the other toggle down to match it, and the canopy will straighten out. It's a dynamic process; rather than put the toggles at a certain position, you have to speed up one toggle for a second, then speed up the other to match it, before you level them and finish the flare. If you balloon upwards, then don't flare as quickly. If you drop to the ground, bring both toggles down more aggressively when they are 'split.' One thing that helps people is to think about where your canopy is rather than what it's doing. Use the toggles to put it off to one side for a moment, then use them to put it back over your head. This can be hard to practice with a large canopy. I can pull off a 45 degree turn on a Manta, but the flare is over so fast that it's hard to explain what I just did. It's much easier on a canopy loaded around 1:1, so you may want to wait on this one until you get to that loading. Note that if you combine a flare turn with a flat turn, you can pull off nearly a 180 degree turn at just above 50 feet. Also note that knowing how to do flat and flare turns doesn't mean you can always turn at 50 feet and get away with it - sometimes it's better to accept a downwind landing than make a turn at a dangerously low altitude. But if you do have to turn low (say, you're on course for the electrified fence around the pit bull farm) a flat/flare turn will let you either turn and land normally or turn and minimize the damage caused by landing in a turn. ------------------------------------------------- Whole article: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #21 September 26, 2006 Thanks for the link Bill. I'm going to read, and re-read it a few times. In this case I do know that it was a cross wind because I was turning away from a taxi way to avoid hitting it. I had missed my spot a little due to the winds being stronger on downwind than I had anticipated. I know your not saying that I always reach, and in thinking back, I was trying to be careful to avoid that taxi way (for a really dumb reason which I should not share ) and made a choice to turn and put myself cross wind a bit. The winds were steady at probably 10-12 knots, maybe a tad more, it's hard to say. Anyway, thanks as usual!! Your always a help.BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #22 September 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteFreeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !! Glad you are ok... dude I started at 21 jumps One...make that two shots of one of my former AFF students while she was learning the art of backloops. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 2 #23 September 27, 2006 Quote>When they say toggles together durning flare!!! "Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is. At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline. "Toggles together" is a good habit, not a crutch. A couple benefits: 1) if you need to PLF then your arms are in close and less likely to get broken. 2) When a low-timer is being distracted by the approaching earth at 10 feet... the hands stay together and the flare is even (instead of reaching for the ground and breaking a wrist) Jumpers can take this good habit and still learn to do braked turns when they're ready Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #24 September 27, 2006 >"Toggles together" is a good habit, not a crutch. "Toggles together" is like "eyes on the horizon", "two stage flare" or "feet and knees together at 20 feet." It's a great thing to do when you're starting out, and can really save your butt in some situations. But it's also something you have to outgrow before you move on to higher wingloadings/more aggressive canopies. Keeping your toggles together means you cannot use them to correct your flare once you've started. At higher loadings, that can result in injuries due to failure to maintain heading during the flare (or being unable to change one's heading during the flare.) This doesn't mean that "toggles together" is worthless - rather, it means that if someone is trying to decide whether to get a more aggressive canopy, and they're still doing the "toggles together" thing, they'd be well-advised to make a few more jumps on that canopy before they downsize. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brumby 0 #25 September 27, 2006 QuoteThe sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! I like you statement............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
