Nope, the 'surge' sure isn't working, is it?

[mnealtx 0]

From USA Today.

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By Jim Michaels, USA TODAY
The number of truck bombs and other large al-Qaeda-style attacks in Iraq have declined nearly 50% since the United States started increasing troop levels in Iraq about six months ago, according to the U.S. military command in Iraq.

The high-profile attacks — generally large bombs hitting markets, mosques or other "soft" targets that produce mass casualties — have dropped to about 70 in July from a high during the past year of about 130 in March, according to the Multi-National Force — Iraq.

Military officers say the decline reflects progress in damaging al-Qaeda's networks in Iraq. The military has launched offensives around Baghdad aimed at al-Qaeda sanctuaries and bases.

"The enemy had the initiative and the momentum in '06," said Jack Keane, a retired general who is a chief architect of the increase in troop levels and mentor to Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq. "We've got it now."

And from Michael Yon

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The mantra that “there is no political progress in Iraq” is rapidly becoming the “surge” equivalent of a green alligator: when enough people repeat something that sounds plausible, but also happens to be false, it becomes accepted as fact. The more often it is repeated—and the larger the number of people repeating it—the harder it is to convince anyone of the truth: alligators are not green, and Iraqis are making plenty of political progress.

There may be little progress on political goals crafted in America, to meet American concerns, by politicians who have a cushion of 200 years of democracy. Washington might as well be on the moon. Iraqis don’t respond well to rules imposed from outside their acknowledged authorities, though I have many times seen Iraqi Police and Army of all ranks responding very well to American Marines and soldiers who they have come to respect, and in many cases actually admire and try to emulate. Our military has increasing moral authority in Iraq, but the same cannot be said for our government at home. In fact, it’s in moral deficit because many Iraqis are increasingly frightened we will abandon them to genocide.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[idrankwhat 0]

For a more complete picture.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6938527.stm
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6943120.stm

[mnealtx 0]

Appreciate the links - still doesn't disprove what was said in my post, however.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[NCclimber 0]

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For a more complete picture.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6938527.stm

That article seems to focus only on the last two months. Seems like a complete picture would look at the entire surge period, and put it in context to what was going on beforehand.

[masterblaster72 0]

Good news.

Now imagine how many lives could have been spared if the dipshit-in-chief followed the advice of the generals in the first place.

There would have been no need for a surge if this was done correctly from the start.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Appreciate the links - still doesn't disprove what was said in my post, however.

Didn't say that it did. I hope that things eventually do get better and I'm sure that they will, eventually. That also doesn't detract however from the fact that the mess never should have been made in the first place. The invasion was illegal and quite possibly the biggest foreign policy blunder in the world's history (time will tell), certainly the US' history. Eventually fixing things up to something considered an "acceptable" level at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and billions or trillions of dollars will never change that.

[mnealtx 0]

Illegal? Ill-advised, I'll give you - illegal, no.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnnyD 0]

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"The enemy had the initiative and the momentum in '06," said Jack Keane, a retired general who is a chief architect of the increase in troop levels and mentor to Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq. "We've got it now."

Bombings are down, but they are still at a level of 2.3 per day. The increase in troops is having an effect, that is certain. But how long can it be sustained? If you look at the bigger picture, what indicates that peace is on the horizon? Nothing at all that I can see. If we stop the troop surge tomorrow, what will come? Chaos. The government is on the verge of collapse. That is the key to the surge. It was supposed to be a temporary measure to decrease sectarian violence and allow the government to stabilize. Violence is down, but the government is on the verge of collapse. So the surge worked in one aspect, but not another. I don't think anything can stop the sectarian problems that Iraq has. The government we installed has no hope of being successful. All we are doing is delaying the civil war, putting AQ in the mix, and putting ourselves right in the middle of the whole mess.

[NCclimber 0]

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That also doesn't detract however from the fact that the mess never should have been made in the first place. The invasion was illegal and quite possibly the biggest foreign policy blunder in the world's history (time will tell), certainly the US' history. Eventually fixing things up to something considered an "acceptable" level at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and billions or trillions of dollars will never change that.

Does this really have anything to do with whether or not the "surge" is working?

It seems that many of the anti-war posters are incapable of discussing any specific topic involving Iraq, without trotting out the same old "Bush lied, people died" mantra. Everybody gets it. You're deeply pissed off at Bush et al for getting us into this in the first place. As a matter of fact, I'm pissed off, too. That doesn't change the fact that we currently have a bad situation that needs to be remedied, whether or not it was the biggest US screwup in history!

IMO it sucks that many of you can't have a discussion on anything related to Iraq (or even politics) without resorting to the same old wornout tactic.

[JohnnyD 0]

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That doesn't change the fact that we currently have a bad situation that needs to be remedied, whether or not it was the biggest US screwup in history!

And the big question is how. The surge is working, but no amount of US troops can make Iraqis work together to create a unified Iraq if they don't want to, and I don't think they want to. At what point do we have to step back and let the Iraqis decide what will become of Iraq? I say right now, because in the end, they will anyway.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Illegal? Ill-advised, I'll give you - illegal, no.

Nazis, ill-advised.

[joedirt 0]

I think saying it's "illegal" became vogue somewheree along the line

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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I think saying it's "illegal" became vogue somewheree along the line

What should we use now? Supreme crime of aggression? Terrorism? I guess those would be more fitting true

[idrankwhat 0]

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Illegal? Ill-advised, I'll give you - illegal, no.

"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing." Richard Pearle, 2003.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1089158,00.html

"When pressed on whether he viewed the invasion of Iraq as illegal, he said: "Yes, if you wish. I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter from our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal.""
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm

And, to be fair, here's a link with arguments for and against the legality.
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=518&id=303282003

[idrankwhat 0]

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Does this really have anything to do with whether or not the "surge" is working?

People need to remember that it didn't need to happen in the first place. Talking about how we're slowly fixing what we trashed isn't really much of a success story. Someone rips off your car leaves it parked at the bottom of a lake. Are you going to give a crap if you get it back and it's got a shiny new paint job and some spinning rims?

[idrankwhat 0]

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IMO it sucks that many of you can't have a discussion on anything related to Iraq (or even politics) without resorting to the same old wornout tactic.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. See attachment.

[billvon 3,132]

We win AGAIN! Excellent! We're turning the corner now. They're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency. We have now reached a turning point in the struggle between freedom and terror. It could last six more days, six weeks - I doubt six months. Good news to the men and women who fought . . . their mission is complete. This is a turning point for the Iraqi citizens. Finally, major combat operations in Iraq have ended.

As GWB once said, "You got to keep repeating things over and over and over . . .to kind of catapult the propaganda."

[quade 4]

Define "working".

What, ultimately, does a 50% reduction in truck bomb attacks get us?

If you said, 100% reduction and NO attacks, I think you'd be on to something, but these people live in that country and they aren't going away just because we put another 20,000 or so troops in place.

Further, there have been recent calls for a DRAFT to support this. Why? Because our leadership understands we cant sustain a "surge" like this for very long. When the numbers drop back down, you will see the situation quickly go back to the way it was.

The "surge" solves nothing long term.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NCclimber 0]

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Does this really have anything to do with whether or not the "surge" is working?

People need to remember that it didn't need to happen in the first place.

I'd say it's pretty much impossible, considering it gets brought up just about every single day!!!

[freethefly 6]

I get the impression that the militants only scattered into hiding like roaches when the light (the surge) was turned on. They'll be back once the light is dimmed and in greater numbers.
It seems that the militants do the one thing thatt the U.S. has failed to do. Fall back, regroup and attack with new stratagies.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Amazon 7]

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I'd say it's pretty much impossible, considering it gets brought up just about every single day!!!

I guess when its IMPORTANT to you because you know people who are actually putting their asses on the line so that the CHICKENHAWKS do NOT have to go.. it becomes something that you indeed think about everyday.

[NCclimber 0]

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I'd say it's pretty much impossible, considering it gets brought up just about every single day!!!

I guess when its IMPORTANT to you because you know people who are actually putting their asses on the line so that the CHICKENHAWKS do NOT have to go.. it becomes something that you indeed think about everyday.

Aside from certain people getting al warm inside from their self-righteous posturing, does it have any impact?

[idrankwhat 0]

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Aside from certain people getting al warm inside from their self-righteous posturing, does it have any impact?

Hopefully act as a deterrent against similarly ill advised activities. And maybe to hold those responsible accountable for their actions. I won't hold my breath for that last one.

[Amazon 7]

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Hopefully act as a deterrent against similarly ill advised activities. And maybe to hold those responsible accountable for their actions. I won't hold my breath for that last one.

I would put everyone who supports George and Dicks Excellent Misadventure in Iraq in uniform and put thier asses over there. And Dick and his minions can run things from the Green Zone in Bahgdad too.

[NCclimber 0]

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Hopefully act as a deterrent against similarly ill advised activities. And maybe to hold those responsible accountable for their actions. I won't hold my breath for that last one.

I would put everyone who supports George and Dicks Excellent Misadventure in Iraq in uniform and put thier asses over there. And Dick and his minions can run things from the Green Zone in Bahgdad too.

Kind of a Third World method of conscription, eh?

Brilliant!