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[KidWicked 0]

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But instead, the media whines about innocents being killed in crossfire, buildings being damaged collaterally, reduction in food, water, electric and sewer systems, museums being looted, government being destroyed, blah blah blah. Well no shit, this is war. Those things happen.

So the mere fact that "it's war" excuses those things?

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[rushmc 23]

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I was fine with the mission to dump Saddam, but I'm struggling to understand how the media is losing Iraq and lost Vietnam.

Is it naivity or stupidity that thinks either are winnable operations?

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It is to think they are not winnable! You want to suck down and spew back the other side go ahead. I for one believe that both could/will be won if the left does not succeed in swaying public opinion with thier reporting misinformation

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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[Iceburner 0]

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***unwavering support on the ground in Iraq. Why not do the patriotic thing and go join today?

***And anyone who tried to do the right thing, but couldn't achieve it in that 6 month period, is now deemed incompetent and criminal.

Yup! Invading a country that poised no threat is always the right thing to do.

Well, i may not be john, but i did join in the time of war. Also, i dont like breaking it down into liberal/conservative in an argument, becasue no matter who you are, if you get called one it is considered a personal attack.

You say Iraq poised no threat to US. Hitler poised no threat to us, yet we supplied our allies with weapons and money, later took over and kicked his ass. Hitler was a bad man, we can agree, and he no longer exsisted because of us. Many of the arian germans didn't want hitler overthrown just as many of the rich iraqi's didn't want Saddam overthrown...but i am assuming we can agree that he, too, was a bad man. In Darfur, there is an outcry of support because of the warlords committing war crimes there...and who's supposed to step up? Well, many people say the U.S. should do something there...but what threat does anyone there pose to us? Also, many may not know this, but some people that we are still capturing in Iraq still have the needles (can't remember their exact name... ) that you stab into yourself after a chemical weapons attack....why would they be supplied this if they never had WMD's to begin with?

Our "allies" say iraq never was a problem....aka the french...yet we find weapons cache's of FUCKIN BRAND NEW french equipment that the insurgents are using (yea, that kinda pisses me off a bit if you can't tell).

I said the media is losing the war, because you rarely hear of anything good coming from Iraq or Afghan...the media in the U.S. is entertainment...watch the local news and i'll bet you hear more tragedy than anything...and why? because it helps their ratings. A couple years ago a young devildog (Marine for those of you who dont know our nicknames) was shown shooting a "wounded iraqi) and the media immediatly said it was out of cold blood, etc. However, when it was found out that not more than a few days ealier, another Marine was wounded by an "injured iraqi" who just happened to have a grenade, and this was a repeat incident (dunno if that makes sense to any of you...). The insurgents/extreemist/whatever youw ant to call them fight dirty, and when soldiers/Marines/brits/etc protect themselves, the media is making them out to be the bad guys. It is war, people do die, and it is sad. However, i firmly believe if you start something you should be there until the job is done. Americans wanted iraq to be free, wanted saddam to be taken out, and wanted a civil govt. there....however, we are impatient, and now want to leave beacuse what we see on the news must be all that is happening. Do i believe that if the middle east had no oil we wouldnt give a damn? well, i do think oil is the reason we want peace there, but i dont believe that's why we went to war....as gas prices haven't dropped lower than pre-war prices from what i can remember.

So to close my rant, do i believe that Americans are weak...not all of them. The devildogs in my platoon are stronger than i could have imagined. However, i believe that Americans are generally misinformed, and will believe anything they see on T.V. because it's easier than reading different newspapers. But then again, i guess if you really want the truth, go there, see for yourself. Try being a female/minority in a country like pre-war Iraq, and ask yourself if you believe it is better now or not. Yes people are still dying, but the job isn't done, and when it actualy gets done (whether the U.S. is there in the end or not) i truely believe life will be better...as at least they now have a say in what happens, no matter how small a voice it may be.

[mnealtx 0]

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I was fine with the mission to dump Saddam, but I'm struggling to understand how the media is losing Iraq and lost Vietnam.

Is it naivity or stupidity that thinks either are winnable operations?

Nation building doesn't work very well when the country is not united in what they want.

OTOH, Vietnam was fairly united in wanting colonials out, and had the support of the Commies as a cold war battleground. Considering the effort, the level of bombing and deforrestation done, what the hell would have changed this reality? How is it any different from the Colonies in the 1770s?

How the media is losing Iraq and lost Vietnam? Simple - look at the reporting on the war - all the bad is accentuated and re-reported over and over, and the good is minimized or not reported at all.

If you really want to see what's happening over there, find independent embeds like Michael Yon, Bill Rogio and similar reporters and you'll get a much better picture.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SpeedRacer 1]

wow, it's nice to know that all the facts & figures re. the continued violence in Iraq are all just fabrications of the liberal media.

what a relief.

Speed Racer
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[jakee 1,611]

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wow, it's nice to know that all the facts & figures re. the continued violence in Iraq are all just fabrications of the liberal media.

what a relief.

No no you've got it all wrong!

It's a cause and effect relationship y'see, because life imitates art. When liberal journalists write about car bombs in Kabul* then car bombs must go off. When liberal journalists write about failing inner city schools, inner city schools must fail. When liberal journalists write that abstinence programs don't work, the cheerleaders must get pregnant.

In effect, the universe conforms to represent whatever it is liberal journalists write about.

Except global warming. That one's just a lie.




* Yes, I know it's not in Iraq.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

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wow, it's nice to know that all the facts & figures re. the continued violence in Iraq are all just fabrications of the liberal media.

what a relief.

It took a while but now you get it!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[warpedskydiver 0]

Well stated, however the usual posters here, as the leftist media, will proclaim you do not know anything about this matter, but they do because they have been to the hotels in the green zone, and seen it all for themselves.

[billvon 3,132]

>as the leftist media, will proclaim you do not know anything about
> this matter, but they do because they have been to the hotels in the
> green zone, and seen it all for themselves.

Exactly. And when one of those lying leftist reporters is killed or kidnapped in Iraq, the surviving ones make it out like it's some bad thing! They should pass a law that requires the surviving reporters to report on only good things. Once the government starts dictating what should be reported on THEN we'll see accurate and unbiased reporting.

[idrankwhat 0]

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wow, it's nice to know that all the facts & figures re. the continued violence in Iraq are all just fabrications of the liberal media.

what a relief.

It took a while but now you get it!

I'll agree, it's all the media's fault.
If they hadn't been so damn lazy, forgotten how to think/remember/question, and resigned themselves to vomiting repetitive talking points so they didn't get their press passes yanked, we wouldn't have gotten into this mess. All of the information was and still is there. But only a very few were looking at it.

[JohnRich 4]

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For years it's been all about those pussified liberal bitches who want to cut and run from Iraq before the job was done, now it's the fault of all those pussified liberal bitches that were there trying to do an un-neccesary job in the first place!

Yep, one of the ironies of the whole Iraq affair is that it was the liberals who demanded all the humanitarian aide and rebuilding in the first place, and now those same liberals want to cut-and-run and let those poor people be at the mercy of chaos, genocide and civil war.

To the liberals, it's all about making themselves feel better, and they do it with a short attention span. They send in assistance, and they feel good. But now that the assistance is causing U.S. casualties, they have to make themselves feel good again by pulling the troops out to save the soldiers. They can't see beyond their noses to recognize the predictable long-term outcomes to their short-term feel-good ideas.

And after their pull-out is complete and hundreds of thousands of Iraqiis are being murdered, they'll feel bad about that, and assuage their emotions by heaping blame on President Bush for it. But they won't lift a finger to do anything about it, because down deep, they really don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

It's all about making themselves feel morally superior, moment by moment. And when it doesn't work out their way, then obviously, it's the fault of the evil right wing conservatives.

[shropshire 0]

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Nope ... In the first place came the [unjustifiable] attack/invasion/destruction/death
I think that you need to revise your time-line, somewhat.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 3,132]

>now those same liberals want to cut-and-run and let those poor
>people be at the mercy of chaos, genocide and civil war.

That's as true as saying that the conservative chickenhawk dead-enders want to continue the current policy of failure and misdirection - as long as it is not their lives at risk.

Conservatives have to stow their egos and start thinking about what's best for Iraq and for the US. The "stay and die" strategy isn't working. Time for a new one. I just hope we don't have to lose another 3500 US troops before we get that new strategy.

>To the liberals, it's all about making themselves feel better . . .

The liberals aren't the ones desperate for another "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner they can hang on the wall. The war supporters are the ones who don't want to have their egos crushed by admitting they may have been wrong.

>And after their pull-out is complete and hundreds of thousands of Iraqiis
>are being murdered, they'll feel bad about that, and assuage their
>emotions by heaping blame on President Bush for it.

I feel bad about seeing Iraqis killing themselves. But I feel worse about US soldiers killing them.

To use an example, you would probably feel bad if your neighbor was killed. If you tried to stop it, and failed, you'd probably still feel bad. If you were the one who killed your neighbor - that's a whole order of magnitude worse.

Can you see a difference there?

>But they won't lift a finger to do anything about it, because down deep,
>they really don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

More people are dying in Darfur RIGHT NOW, and you're not lifting a finger. Does that mean you really don't give a shit about anyone but yourself?

>And when it doesn't work out their way, then obviously, it's the fault of
>the evil right wing conservatives.

Close. When a war doesn't work, it's the fault of the person who planned and began the war.

I know, this is the age of no-fault government. The buck stops somewhere else. It's not our fault! It's the liberals! It's the media! It's Al Franken! ANYONE BUT US! We had nothing to do with the war! Well, only the good parts.

That attitude has come back to haunt the administration. The "not our fault" presidency is now getting historically low approval ratings from conservatives as well as liberals. GOP congressmen are repudiating Bush's failed policies and asking for a better solution. His most ardent supporters are abandoning him as the real world begins to overwhelm the rosy picture the administration has been painting.

However, it's not too late. Imagine the support Bush would garner if he could make a speech similar to another president's:

---------
This administration intends to be candid about its errors.
For as a wise man once said, “An error does not become
a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” We intend to accept
full responsibility for our errors. . . . We’re not going
to have any search for scapegoats . . . the final responsibilities
of any failure are mine, and mine alone.
---------

If he had the courage to make such a speech, he could garner the support of the US (and indeed parts of the world we have lost) and use that support to change course in Iraq and fix the problems there. Will he find that sort of wisdom, and have the courage to admit his mistakes? I hope so. But based on his performance so far I doubt it.

[rushmc 23]

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>now those same liberals want to cut-and-run and let those poor
>people be at the mercy of chaos, genocide and civil war.

That's as true as saying that the conservative chickenhawk dead-enders want to continue the current policy of failure and misdirectionsee, you make yourself feel better with bs statements like this. JR 1, billvon 0 - as long as it is not their lives at risk.

Conservatives have to stow their egos and start thinking about what's best for Iraq and for the US.They are covering both. JR 2, billvon 0 The "stay and die" strategy isn't working. they have one and it is working, JR 3 billvon 0 Time for a new one. I just hope we don't have to lose another 3500 US troops before we get that new strategy.numbers make you feel good about your position. JR 4, billvon 0

>To the liberals, it's all about making themselves feel better . . .

The liberals aren't the ones desperate for another "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner they can hang on the wall. The war supporters are the ones who don't want to have their egos crushed by admitting they may have been wrong.misdirection is all you have. JR 5, billvon 0

>And after their pull-out is complete and hundreds of thousands of Iraqiis
>are being murdered, they'll feel bad about that, and assuage their
>emotions by heaping blame on President Bush for it.

I feel bad about seeing Iraqis killing themselves. But I feel worse about US soldiers killing them.for the most part that what is NOT happening over there. They are killing themselves and each other to make you feel better about your position. They can't win over there so they use those like you to try and win over here. JR 6, billvon 0

To use an example, you would probably feel bad if your neighbor was killed. If you tried to stop it, and failed, you'd probably still feel bad. If you were the one who killed your neighbor - that's a whole order of magnitude worse.

Can you see a difference there? another billvon off topic post to misdirect. JR 7, billvon 0

>But they won't lift a finger to do anything about it, because down deep,
>they really don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

More people are dying in Darfur RIGHT NOW, and you're not lifting a finger. Does that mean you really don't give a shit about anyone but yourself?another misdirect, JR 8, billvon 0

>And when it doesn't work out their way, then obviously, it's the fault of
>the evil right wing conservatives.

Close. When a war doesn't work, it's the fault of the person who planned and began the war.

I know, this is the age of no-fault government. The buck stops somewhere else. It's not our fault! It's the liberals! It's the media! It's Al Franken! ANYONE BUT US! We had nothing to do with the war! Well, only the good parts.
all you want is more government, and one of you chosing cause you know better than the the rest of us
That attitude has come back to haunt the administration. The "not our fault" presidency is now getting historically low approval ratings from conservatives as well as liberals. GOP congressmen are repudiating Bush's failed policies and asking for a better solution.nothing has failed, you just don't like it. JR 9 billvon ) His most ardent supporters are abandoning him as the real world begins to overwhelm the rosy picture the administration has been painting.

However, it's not too late. Imagine the support Bush would garner if he could make a speech similar to another president's:

---------
This administration intends to be candid about its errors.
For as a wise man once said, “An error does not become
a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” We intend to accept
full responsibility for our errors. . . . We’re not going
to have any search for scapegoats . . . the final responsibilities
of any failure are mine, and mine alone.
---------

If he had the courage to make such a speech, he could garner the support of the US (and indeed parts of the world we have lost) and use that support to change course in Iraq and fix the problems there. Will he find that sort of wisdom, and have the courage to admit his mistakes? I hope so. But based on his performance so far I doubt it.

I am glad we don't have weak position leaders with thoughts like yours

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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wow, it's nice to know that all the facts & figures re. the continued violence in Iraq are all just fabrications of the liberal media.

what a relief.

It took a while but now you get it!

I'll agree, it's all the media's fault.
If they hadn't been so damn lazy, forgotten how to think/remember/question, and resigned themselves to vomiting repetitive talking points so they didn't get their press passes yanked, we wouldn't have gotten into this mess. All of the information was and still is there. But only a very few were looking at it.

Yep, and you are leading the pack

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,611]

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Yep, one of the ironies of the whole Iraq affair is that it was the liberals who demanded all the humanitarian aide and rebuilding in the first place, and now those same liberals want to cut-and-run and let those poor people be at the mercy of chaos, genocide and civil war.

Liberals made Bush try his hand at nation building in Iraq? Are you actually off your rocker?

How in the name of all that is rational could it possibly be liberals who made that happen?

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And after their pull-out is complete and hundreds of thousands of Iraqiis are being murdered, they'll feel bad about that, and assuage their emotions by heaping blame on President Bush for it.

Uh, who went into Iraq in the first place? Or was that the liberals fault as well? In 10 years time will we all be talking about the evil liberal media that pressured the US into ending Saddam Husseins reign when all Bush wanted to do was play golf in Texas?

It really must be an amazing place inside your head.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

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Yep, one of the ironies of the whole Iraq affair is that it was the liberals who demanded all the humanitarian aide and rebuilding in the first place, and now those same liberals want to cut-and-run and let those poor people be at the mercy of chaos, genocide and civil war.

Liberals made Bush try his hand at nation building in Iraq? Are you actually off your rocker?

How in the name of all that is rational could it possibly be liberals who made that happen?

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And after their pull-out is complete and hundreds of thousands of Iraqiis are being murdered, they'll feel bad about that, and assuage their emotions by heaping blame on President Bush for it.

Uh, who went into Iraq in the first place? Or was that the liberals fault as well? In 10 years time will we all be talking about the evil liberal media that pressured the US into ending Saddam Husseins reign when all Bush wanted to do was play golf in Texas?

It really must be an amazing place inside your head.

I want some of what you are smoking if this is what you took from this post

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,132]

You are wrong

[jakee 1,611]

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I want some of what you are smoking if this is what you took from this post

I took from the post exactly what John wrote.

What you recieved through your red tinted glasses is another matter, and not one that I really give a shit about.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

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You are wrong

I don't think so

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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I want some of what you are smoking if this is what you took from this post

I took from the post exactly what John wrote.

What you recieved through your red tinted glasses is another matter, and not one that I really give a shit about.

I knew that before I even posted it. Taking from your comments I now understand red tinted must mean the truth. Not like the rose colored ones some others must be looking through

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shropshire 0]

<>

You're [still] wrong.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[mnealtx 0]

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The "stay and die" strategy isn't working. Time for a new one.

If you read the independent embeds like Michael Yon, you can see that it *is* working, regardless of what the MSM is trying to get you to believe. I believe Gen. Petraus gave a briefing to Congress about that a few weeks ago... as I recall, several of the Dem leadership couldn't be bothered to attend.

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More people are dying in Darfur RIGHT NOW, and you're not lifting a finger.

So... the UN doing their thing was good enough for Iraq and the US shouldn't have done anything, but it's NOT good enough for Darfur, and the US *SHOULD* do something?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

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>

You're [still] wrong.

It is fun to watch you react to the same tactics you use. Oh, you (and billvon) are not as blunt but it is the same nun the same

Ironic aint it!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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The "stay and die" strategy isn't working. Time for a new one.

If you read the independent embeds like Michael Yon, you can see that it *is* working, regardless of what the MSM is trying to get you to believe. I believe Gen. Petraus gave a briefing to Congress about that a few weeks ago... as I recall, several of the Dem leadership couldn't be bothered to attend.

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More people are dying in Darfur RIGHT NOW, and you're not lifting a finger.

So... the UN doing their thing was good enough for Iraq and the US shouldn't have done anything, but it's NOT good enough for Darfur, and the US *SHOULD* do something?

There is one hell of a report on Fox right now. The surge is presently working. Bad news for the left surender agents. Hell, even area written off in Jan buy the military are shocking some in the military and critics!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln